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How can I influence others without manipulating them?

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Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#11

Post by kaechle »

klodolph wrote: post #8
sema4hacker wrote: post #2

If I successfully influence someone, I feel I've manipulated them nonetheless.

I see this sentiment from time to time in the HN crowd, and I’m really interested in understanding more about it. My first reaction to this? I think that you’re using “manipulate” to describe a process where somebody doesn’t want to do something, and make them do it anyway, but without using force. It feels like this has to be rooted in some kind of denial of other people’s free will—that they are somehow incapable o…

Those are some bounding leaps you made without much context. Are you in sales?

Kidding aside, my first reaction was: perhaps the occasions they were aware of their own influence were ones in which they didn't much care for the outcome. Or maybe a conflict of interest, like trying to win over a hiring manager for a position you know you'll hate.

I don't think cajoling or persuading others inherently manipulative, but I can think of a lot of examples where doing so feels grimy.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#12

Post by smcin »

treetalker wrote: post #4

I'll respond to the title instead of the article. As an attorney, I've found that the best persuasion is the removal of impediments and friction standing between the person you hope to influence and what they want to do in the first place. Most other tactics amount to force or deceit ("manipulation").

Are you talking about the judge, opposing attorney, your client, coworker, business partner, or who? Surely that context matters much more than you're suggesting, viz what you individually perceive the impediments and friction to be, and how you both think they can be removed?

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#13

Post by rendx »

sema4hacker wrote: post #2

If I successfully influence someone, I feel I've manipulated them nonetheless.

In one of many possible definitions, manipulation requires deceit; a hidden agenda or goal.

In an "original" definition, manipulation literally means "to move". In that sense, we all manipulate. We move.

The two combined together: You're allowed to "move". You are broadly "allowed" to "manipulate" in that sense. If you add lies, deceit, etc, you're in territory others might not find acceptable, and will in turn reject you or remove you from their lives.

If you feel bad about your "success" but can't see why on a rational level, you may want to remember how your parents or other people growing up treated you. Can you find some childhood memories related to this? Potentially "adverse" experiences related to "manipulation" around you?

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#14

Post by rendx »

smcin wrote: post #12
treetalker wrote: post #4

I'll respond to the title instead of the article. As an attorney, I've found that the best persuasion is the removal of impediments and friction standing between the person you hope to influence and what they want to do in the first place. Most other tactics amount to force or deceit ("manipulation").

Are you talking about the judge, opposing attorney, your client, coworker, business partner, or who? Surely that context matters much more than you're suggesting, viz what you individually perceive the impediments and friction to be, and how you both think they can be removed?

(Not OP) How so? Behind every "no", there is a good reason. If you are honestly curious to understand the objection or hesitation, you may find ways to address them, and find others opening up to your suggestions when their points have been heard. Fundamental principle behind NVC.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#16

Post by Frannky »

I think it's about helping them map out the options. So, listening to what they want and truthfully sharing your opinion on how the different options will solve their problem. If the best option for them is what you sell, it's a win-win. If it's not, all good. They will thank you if you truly helped them and gave them the best option for their problem. Obviously, this isn't possible if what you sell is never the best option. In that case, the problem exists before the conversation even happens. Either make a better product or change company

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#17

Post by twodave »

dsubburam wrote: post #9

Persuasion that happens in good faith is a two-way street. You explain your position, but also truly listen to theirs. If you are prepared to change your own position based on what they say, then you can hope that they might change theirs based on what you say. If it is truly two way in this sense, including your best efforts to extract from the other party their strongest, potentially unexpected, arguments for their…

This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. It’s important to understand where these lines fall within yourself and those you are speaking with. Some arguments aren’t worth having in an effort to persuade, but rather they should be discussions aimed at understanding, being vulnerable and finding ways to respect and live at peace among people we have fundamental differences with. Otherwise we are no different than Crusaders and Jihadists.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#18

Post by trjordan »

This is a very HN sort of sentiment. How can I be persuasive without being gross?

I had a bit of a moment when I first became a PM. (I've done a bunch of things, engineering / sales / founding, but PM only sort of recently.) I realized that my job was to wake up in the morning and pick fights. Or more diplomatically: to tell people they were doing the wrong thing, and they should be doing a different thing, in a way that made them want to listen to me more in the future, not less.

That's the job. In fact, in almost every job, that's the job.

Impact happens when you reach people and they behave differently because of you. That's nothing to be ashamed of. If you do it authentically and with good intent, it's one of the best things you can do with your time.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#19

Post by nenenejej »

trjordan wrote: post #18

This is a very HN sort of sentiment. How can I be persuasive without being gross? I had a bit of a moment when I first became a PM. (I've done a bunch of things, engineering / sales / founding, but PM only sort of recently.) I realized that my job was to wake up in the morning and pick fights. Or more diplomatically: to tell people they were doing the wrong thing, and they should be doing a different thing, in a way…

Think of what you are doing as revealing information as to why you think your new approach is more aligned with business and business goals. Give them room to do the same.

There might be systemic issues getting in the way. You and them having competing OKRs for example. Good to surface that and deal with it too.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#20

Post by nenenejej »

smcin wrote: post #12
treetalker wrote: post #4

I'll respond to the title instead of the article. As an attorney, I've found that the best persuasion is the removal of impediments and friction standing between the person you hope to influence and what they want to do in the first place. Most other tactics amount to force or deceit ("manipulation").

Are you talking about the judge, opposing attorney, your client, coworker, business partner, or who? Surely that context matters much more than you're suggesting, viz what you individually perceive the impediments and friction to be, and how you both think they can be removed?

Lawyers vs. lawyers may not be the cleanest example since a defence lawyers job is to make it harder for th prosecution to win, but then might want to get that advantage then mediate a deal.

For most of us ideally a colleague is more aligned than that.

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