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AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

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Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#71

Post by Hendrikto »

bentt wrote: post #60

The best code I've written with an LLM has been where I architect it, I guide the LLM through the scaffolding and initial proofs of different components, and then I guide it through adding features. Along the way it makes mistakes and I guide it through fixing them. Then when it is slow, I profile and guide it through optimizations. So in the end, it's code that I know very, very well. I could have written it but it…

> I could have written it but it would have taken me about 3x longer when all is said and done.

Really does not sound like that from your description. It sounds like coaching a noob, which is a lot of work in itself.

Wasn’t there a study that said that using LLMs makes people feel more productive while they actually are not?

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#72

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

mattmanser wrote: post #68
bentt wrote: post #60

The best code I've written with an LLM has been where I architect it, I guide the LLM through the scaffolding and initial proofs of different components, and then I guide it through adding features. Along the way it makes mistakes and I guide it through fixing them. Then when it is slow, I profile and guide it through optimizations. So in the end, it's code that I know very, very well. I could have written it but it…

Would it have actually taken you 3x longer? I am surprising myself these days with how fast I'm being using AI as a glorified Stack Overflow. We are also having studies and posts come out that when actually tried side-by-side, the AI writes the coding route is slower, though the developer percieves it as faster.

> the AI writes the coding route is slower, though the developer percieves it as faster.

I have this pattern while driving.

Using the main roads, when there is little to no traffic, the commute is objectively, measurably the fastest.

However, during peak hours, I find myself in traffic jams, so I divert to squiggly country roads which are both slower and longer, but at least I’m moving all the time.

The thing is, when I did have to take the main road during the peak traffic, the difference between it and squiggly country roads was like two to three minutes at worst, and not half an hour like I was afraid it would be. Sure, ten minutes crawling or standing felt like an hour.

Maybe coding with LLMs makes you think you are doing something productive the whole time, but the actual output is little different from the old way? But hey, at least it’s not like you’re twiddling your thumbs for hours, and the bossware measuring your productivity by your keyboard and mouse activity is happy!

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#73

Post by throw265262 »

tjansen wrote: post #69

These days, AI can do much more than "Cranking out boilerplate and scaffolding, Automating repetitive routines". That was last year. With the right instructions, Claude Sonnet 4 can easily write over 99% of most business applications. You need to be specific in your instructions, though. Like "implement this table, add these fields, look at this and this implementation for reference, don't forget to do this and consi…

> But AI can write pretty much all code for a developer who knows what the code should look like.

> the only reason for typing code manually these days is that typing instructions for the LLM is sometimes more work than doing the change yourself.

So the AI is merely an input device like a keyboard and a slow one at that?

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#74

Post by raphinou »

bentt wrote: post #60

The best code I've written with an LLM has been where I architect it, I guide the LLM through the scaffolding and initial proofs of different components, and then I guide it through adding features. Along the way it makes mistakes and I guide it through fixing them. Then when it is slow, I profile and guide it through optimizations. So in the end, it's code that I know very, very well. I could have written it but it…

I usually ask it to build a feature based on a specification I wrote. If it is not exactly right, it is often the case that editing it myself is faster than iterating with the ai, which has sometimes put me in an infinite loop of corrections requests. Have you encountered this too?

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#75

Post by notarobot123 »

mattmanser wrote: post #68
bentt wrote: post #60

The best code I've written with an LLM has been where I architect it, I guide the LLM through the scaffolding and initial proofs of different components, and then I guide it through adding features. Along the way it makes mistakes and I guide it through fixing them. Then when it is slow, I profile and guide it through optimizations. So in the end, it's code that I know very, very well. I could have written it but it…

Would it have actually taken you 3x longer? I am surprising myself these days with how fast I'm being using AI as a glorified Stack Overflow. We are also having studies and posts come out that when actually tried side-by-side, the AI writes the coding route is slower, though the developer percieves it as faster.

I am not the biggest fan of LLMs but I have to admit that, as long as you understand what the technology is and how it works, it is a very powerful tool.

I think the mixed reports on utility have a lot to do with the very different ways the tool is used and how much 'magic' the end-user expects versus how much the end-user expects to guide the tool to do the work.

To get the best out of it, you do have to provide significant amount of scaffolding (though it can help with that too). If you're just pointing it at a codebase and expecting it to figure it out, you're going to have mixed results at best. If you guide it well, it can save a significant amount of manual effort and time.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#76

Post by imiric »

"AI" tools accomplish one thing: output code given natural language input. That's it.

Whether the generated code meets specific quality or security standards, or whether it accomplishes what the user wanted to begin with, depends on the quality of the tool itself, of course, but ultimately on the user and environment.

They're not guaranteed to make anyone "stronger". The amount of variables involved in this is simply too large to make a definitive claim, which is why we see so much debate about the value of these tools, and why benchmarks are pretty much worthless. Even when the same user uses the same model with the same prompts and settings, they can get wildly different results.

What these tools indirectly do is raise the minimum skill level required to produce software. People who never programmed before can find them empowering, not caring about the quality of the end result, as long as it does what they want. Junior programmers can benefit from being able to generate a lot of code quickly, but struggle to maintain the quality standards expected by their team and company. Experienced programmers can find them useful for certain tasks, but frustrating and a waste of time for anything sophisticated. All these viewpoints, and countless others, can be correct.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#78

Post by notarobot123 »

raphinou wrote: post #74
bentt wrote: post #60

The best code I've written with an LLM has been where I architect it, I guide the LLM through the scaffolding and initial proofs of different components, and then I guide it through adding features. Along the way it makes mistakes and I guide it through fixing them. Then when it is slow, I profile and guide it through optimizations. So in the end, it's code that I know very, very well. I could have written it but it…

I usually ask it to build a feature based on a specification I wrote. If it is not exactly right, it is often the case that editing it myself is faster than iterating with the ai, which has sometimes put me in an infinite loop of corrections requests. Have you encountered this too?

Have you tried a more granular strategy - smaller chunks and more iterative cycles?

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#79

Post by tjansen »

throw265262 wrote: post #73
tjansen wrote: post #69

These days, AI can do much more than "Cranking out boilerplate and scaffolding, Automating repetitive routines". That was last year. With the right instructions, Claude Sonnet 4 can easily write over 99% of most business applications. You need to be specific in your instructions, though. Like "implement this table, add these fields, look at this and this implementation for reference, don't forget to do this and consi…

> But AI can write pretty much all code for a developer who knows what the code should look like. > the only reason for typing code manually these days is that typing instructions for the LLM is sometimes more work than doing the change yourself. So the AI is merely an input device like a keyboard and a slow one at that?

Sometimes that happens:) The key is to recognize these situations and not go down that rabbit hole. But sometimes it allows me to do something in 20 minutes that used to take a whole day.
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