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The quality of AI-assisted software depends on unit of work management

blog.nilenso.com

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Re: The quality of AI-assisted software depends on unit of work management

#11
post #7
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, you sound like someone who is just getting familiar with these tools. 100 more hours spent with AI coding and you will be much more productive. Coding with AI is a slightly different skill from coding, similar how managing software engineers is different from writing software.

Then, it's the job of someone else to use these tools, not developers

I agree with your point. I think this is the reason why most developers still don't get it, because AI coding ultimately requires a "higher level" methodology.

Re: The quality of AI-assisted software depends on unit of work management

#12
post #8
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, you sound like someone who is just getting familiar with these tools. 100 more hours spent with AI coding and you will be much more productive. Coding with AI is a slightly different skill from coding, similar how managing software engineers is different from writing software.

liszper: > most SWE folks still have no idea how big the difference is between the coding agents they tried a year ago and declared as useless and chatgpt 5 paired with Codex or Cursor today Also liszper: oh, you tried the current approach and don’t agree with me? Well you just don’t know what you are doing.

Funnily enough the same kind of approach you get from Lisp advocates and the more annoying faction of Linux advocacy (which isn't as prevalent these days, it seems)

Re: The quality of AI-assisted software depends on unit of work management

#13
post #8
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, you sound like someone who is just getting familiar with these tools. 100 more hours spent with AI coding and you will be much more productive. Coding with AI is a slightly different skill from coding, similar how managing software engineers is different from writing software.

liszper: > most SWE folks still have no idea how big the difference is between the coding agents they tried a year ago and declared as useless and chatgpt 5 paired with Codex or Cursor today Also liszper: oh, you tried the current approach and don’t agree with me? Well you just don’t know what you are doing.

Yes, exactly. Learning new things is hard. Personally it took me about 200 hours to get started, and since then ~2500 hours to get familiar with the advanced techniques, and now I'm very happy with the results, managing extremely large codebases with LLM in production.

For context before that I had ~15 years of experience coding the traditional way.

Re: The quality of AI-assisted software depends on unit of work management

#14
post #12
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

liszper: > most SWE folks still have no idea how big the difference is between the coding agents they tried a year ago and declared as useless and chatgpt 5 paired with Codex or Cursor today Also liszper: oh, you tried the current approach and don’t agree with me? Well you just don’t know what you are doing.

Funnily enough the same kind of approach you get from Lisp advocates and the more annoying faction of Linux advocacy (which isn't as prevalent these days, it seems)

I'm also a lisper, yes.

Re: The quality of AI-assisted software depends on unit of work management

#15
post #3

most SWE folks still have no idea how big the difference is between the coding agents they tried a year ago and declared as useless and chatgpt 5 paired with Codex or Cursor today thanks for the article, it's a good one

I think most SWEs do have a good idea where I work.

They know that its a significant, but not revolutionary improvement.

If you supervise and manage your agents closely on well scoped (small) tasks they are pretty handy.

If you need a prototype and don't care about code quality or maintenance, they are great.

Anyone claiming 2x, 5x, 10x etc is absolutely kidding themselves for any non-trivial software.

Re: The quality of AI-assisted software depends on unit of work management

#16
post #11
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then, it's the job of someone else to use these tools, not developers

I agree with your point. I think this is the reason why most developers still don't get it, because AI coding ultimately requires a "higher level" methodology.

"Hacker culture never took root in the 'AI' gold rush because the LLM 'coders' saw themselves not as hackers and explorers, but as temporarily understaffed middle-managers." [0]

This, this is you. This is the entire charade. It seems poetic somehow.

[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45123094

Re: The quality of AI-assisted software depends on unit of work management

#17
post #3

most SWE folks still have no idea how big the difference is between the coding agents they tried a year ago and declared as useless and chatgpt 5 paired with Codex or Cursor today thanks for the article, it's a good one

Last week I wanted to generate some test data for some unit tests for a certain function in a C codebase. It's an audio codec library, so I could have modified the function to dump its inputs to disk and then run the library on any audio file and then hardcoded the input into the unit tests. Instead, I decided I wanted to save a few bytes and wanted to look at generating dummy data dynamically. I wanted to try out Claude for generating the code that would generate the data, so to keep the context manageable I extracted the function and all its dependencies into a self-contained C program (less than 200 lines altogether) and asked it to write a function that would generate dummy data, in C.

Impressively, it recognized the structure of the code and correctly identified it as a component of an audio codec library, and provided a reasonably complete description of many minute details specific to this codec and the work that the function was doing.

Rather less impressively, it decided to ignore my request and write a function that used C++ features throughout, such as type inference and lambdas, or should I say "lambdas" because it was actually just a function-defined-within-a-function that tried to access and mutate variables outside of its own function scope, like we were writing Javascript or something. Even apart from that, the code was rife with the sorts of warnings that even a default invocation of gcc would flag.

I can see why people would be wowed by this on its face. I wouldn't expect any average developer to have such a depth of knowledge and breadth of pattern-matching ability to be able to identify the specific task that this specific function in this specific audio codec was performing.

At the same time, this is clearly not a tool that's suitable for letting loose on a codebase without EXTREME supervision. This was a fresh session (no prior context to confuse it) using a tightly crafted prompt (a small, self-contained C program doing one thing) with a clear goal, and it still required constant handholding.

At the end of the day, I got the code working by editing it manually, but in an honest retrospective I would have to admit that the overall process actually didn't save me any time at all.

Ironically, despite how they're sold, these tools are infinitely better at going from code to English than going the other way around.

Re: The quality of AI-assisted software depends on unit of work management

#18
post #13
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

liszper: > most SWE folks still have no idea how big the difference is between the coding agents they tried a year ago and declared as useless and chatgpt 5 paired with Codex or Cursor today Also liszper: oh, you tried the current approach and don’t agree with me? Well you just don’t know what you are doing.

Yes, exactly. Learning new things is hard. Personally it took me about 200 hours to get started, and since then ~2500 hours to get familiar with the advanced techniques, and now I'm very happy with the results, managing extremely large codebases with LLM in production. For context before that I had ~15 years of experience coding the traditional way.

How many users is production and how large is extremely large.

Re: The quality of AI-assisted software depends on unit of work management

#19
post #3

most SWE folks still have no idea how big the difference is between the coding agents they tried a year ago and declared as useless and chatgpt 5 paired with Codex or Cursor today thanks for the article, it's a good one

I think most SWEs do have a good idea where I work. They know that its a significant, but not revolutionary improvement. If you supervise and manage your agents closely on well scoped (small) tasks they are pretty handy. If you need a prototype and don't care about code quality or maintenance, they are great. Anyone claiming 2x, 5x, 10x etc is absolutely kidding themselves for any non-trivial software.

I'd argue this just proves my point.

Re: The quality of AI-assisted software depends on unit of work management

#20
post #13
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

liszper: > most SWE folks still have no idea how big the difference is between the coding agents they tried a year ago and declared as useless and chatgpt 5 paired with Codex or Cursor today Also liszper: oh, you tried the current approach and don’t agree with me? Well you just don’t know what you are doing.

Yes, exactly. Learning new things is hard. Personally it took me about 200 hours to get started, and since then ~2500 hours to get familiar with the advanced techniques, and now I'm very happy with the results, managing extremely large codebases with LLM in production. For context before that I had ~15 years of experience coding the traditional way.

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