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EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

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Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#241

Post by stateofinquiry »

ptero wrote: post #199
DocTomoe wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between 'the government is no prosecuting for speech' and 'the government makes up unrelated charges when they do not like your speech', as seem to happen a lot these days is only a very, very thin line. Rümeysa Öztürk comes to mind [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Rümeysa_Öztürk

Using another pretext to target someone for their views is definitely a thing. This is not new (e.g., the Assange case) but its frequency is increasing. I am going to offend both sides with what comes next (and curious how many downvotes it will attract), but I put only a small fraction of the blame for the increase in the above on the government which always wants to do this unless they feel a strong, popular pushba…

Tribalism eroding the rights of all. Makes sense to me! I think you are on to something here.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#242

Post by yeahforsureman »

zx10rse wrote: post #205
yohannparis wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who runs the EU? The MEPs and members of the countries government. It's not like it's a different country imposing their way onto us. Talk/contacts your ministers and MEPs if you want your voice to be represented.

You can't be serious. There should't be a discussion at all. This law proposal is explicitly against the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, the allegedly institutions that are supposed to upheld the charter are CJEU, European Commission, FRA, NHRIs, where are they?

I'm pretty sure that if this passes, the EU Court of Justice will eventually find it more or less in violation with EU fundamental rights.

That will take time, though, so I guess they are either hoping that some impossibly secure, reliable and unerring technologies emerge in the meantime, or they are prepared for a forever battle with the Court, coming up with ever new adjustments as soon as previous schemes get struck down[1], meanwhile allowing European law enforcement agencies to keep testing, developing and iterating on whatever client-side scanning or other techno-legal approaches they may come up with. I think this was roughly what they — ie, basically a group of a dozen or two law enforcement reps from different member states agencies and ministries along with like one lonely independent information security expert — said themselves in some working group report as part of some kind of Commission roadmap thing presented by von der Leyen not too long ago.

[1] On the data protection side we've already seen this kind of perpetual movement through the years with respect to different “safeguarding” mechanisms made available to enable transfers of personal data to the US without too much hassle, from Safe Harbor through Privacy Shield to the current Data Privacy Framework.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#243

Post by somenameforme »

pixelpoet wrote: post #185
yohannparis wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who runs the EU? The MEPs and members of the countries government. It's not like it's a different country imposing their way onto us. Talk/contacts your ministers and MEPs if you want your voice to be represented.

I did send hand-written mails to several German representatives, and this is how I was rewarded. Obviously I'm not expecting that my actions alone are enough to get the outcome I want, but it's difficult not to feel the bite of "if voting changed anything, they would make it illegal." It's just going to be some other paid-for dickface in corporate pockets, every time.

You don't make it illegal, you simply ban who the people are voting for, even retroactively if necessary.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#245

Post by tomgag »

I like to think I wrote a good analogy of what ChatControl/client-side scanning really is. They say "it's not a backdoor, it doesn't break E2E encryption", and they're right.

> It's like asking to an alcoholic schizo with a history of corruption, who only speaks Russian, and that you are forced by law to feed and host at your place at your own expense, to check your private letters before you're allowed to put them in an envelope.

https://gagliardoni.net/#20250916_clientside

https://infosec.exchange/@tomgag/115213723470901734

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#246

Post by graemep »

psychoslave wrote: post #231
graemep wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that one problem is that politicians defer too much to "experts" in decisions like this. I cannot remember who it was, but one British prime minister, when told by intelligence services that they needed greater surveillance powers, told them essentially, that of course they would claim that, and firmly refused. Politicians now mostly lack the backbone. That does not stop them ignoring expert advice when it is…

The problem is not they ask experts. Politicians are so utterly incompetent on the thing they are putting law on, at the level they will believe openoffice is a firewall[1]. That doesn’t mean all of them are that blatantly unaware of the basics for which they are supposed to decide of some rule, but that is definitely a thing. The next thing is, do they know how to rely efficiently on a diverse panel of expert, or do…

> The next thing is, do they know how to rely efficiently on a diverse panel of expert, or do they take only yes-man/lobby-funded experts around them?

Unfortunately, I know the answer to that!

> The problem is not they ask experts

I think with with IT they do realise that they do not know. They also believe someone who says something is feasible, or a good solution over someone who says it is not.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#248

Post by max_ »

codeptualize wrote: post #26

One interesting line in the proposal: > Detection will not apply to accounts used by the State for national security purposes, maintaining law and order or military purposes; If it's all very safe and accurate, why is this exception necessary? Doesn't this say either that it's not secure, or that there is a likely hood that there will be false positives that will be reviewed? If they have it all figured out, this exc…

> If it's all very safe and accurate, why is this exception necessary? Doesn't this say either that it's not secure, or that there is a likely hood that there will be false positives that will be reviewed?

Its all a scam! No one cares about you.

They are just setting up the new infrastructure to manipulate & control the docile donkeys more effectively (working class)

Unfortunately, they will be successful.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#249

Post by [deleted] »

vorpalhex wrote: post #238
ookdatnog wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The government is not prosecuting for speech, which is what the free speech protections can and should guarantee. This has absolutely started happening, albeit not yet on a large-scale, systematic basis. Mahmoud Khalil [0] resided in the US legally when he was detained with the intention to deport. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Khalil_(activist)

Khalil also gave material support to terrorists which is explicitly called out as a no-no on your residency paperwork.

[deleted]

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#250

Post by russnes »

saubeidl wrote: post #247
russnes wrote: post #244

This insane push for surveillance and privacy infringements could be the catalyst needed for the next state exit from the EU

and thus further decline of the only democratic superpower left? Why would that be desirable?

The EU is accelerating into a bureaucratic Rube Goldberg machine that does nothing except say the word Democracy out loud and tax their citizens
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