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EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

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Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#131

Post by ThrowawayTestr »

munksbeer wrote: post #126
codeptualize wrote: post #26

One interesting line in the proposal: > Detection will not apply to accounts used by the State for national security purposes, maintaining law and order or military purposes; If it's all very safe and accurate, why is this exception necessary? Doesn't this say either that it's not secure, or that there is a likely hood that there will be false positives that will be reviewed? If they have it all figured out, this exc…

> It's ridiculous that they keep trying this absolutely ridiculous plan over and over again. There is a certain group of politicians who are pushing for this very hard. In this case, the main thrust seems to be coming from Denmark, but from what I understand there are groups (eg. europol) pushing this from behind the scenes. They need the politicians to get it done.

Trolltrace is becoming real

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#132

Post by munksbeer »

rollulus wrote: post #56
Quarrel wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a fan, but in what was is this, or any other topic, undemocratic to have debates and votes on? The sanctions politicians should face for bringing up unpopular topics should be that they don't get voted for. > These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the most powerful punishments available. Yes. Vote them out. Keep raising it.

> Yes. Vote them out. Keep raising it. How do I vote out hostile countries? I’m Dutch, what can I do with my vote to have effects on Denmark, which seems to be the biggest proponent of this BS?

> How do I vote out hostile countries? I’m Dutch, what can I do with my vote to have effects on Denmark, which seems to be the biggest proponent of this BS?

The same way you can vote out other politicians in your own country - you can't. Assuming you live in (say) Amsterdam, you have no right or control of who people from other regions of the Netherlands vote for.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#133

Post by AlecSchueler »

outime wrote: post #91
Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

>Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists Maybe it's time to start considering the current individuals in power as extremists? Just because their speech is more 'peaceful' doesn't mean their actions aren't extremist in nature.

> Maybe it's time to start considering the current individuals in power as extremists?

And what would this change?

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#134

Post by munksbeer »

nickslaughter02 wrote: post #40
fhd2 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was elected by the European parliament. As an EU citizen, you elect that one.

You vote for a few people from your country to become MEPs. Anything beyond that is out of your control.

> You vote for a few people from your country to become MEPs. Anything beyond that is out of your control.

Just like in your country's own elections.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#135

Post by munksbeer »

DocTomoe wrote: post #45
Yokolos wrote: post #3

I can't believe with our history involving the Third Reich and the Stasi that we aren't staunchly opposed. Especially with the impending political upheaval when AfD finally gets enough votes to form a ruling government. Our politicians are insanely shortsighted and somehow don't understand the danger they're enabling.

You see, we the people are staunchly opposed. But the interests of our political leaders (we all know what 'leader' translates to) do not align with out interests. So ... The problem is that this is not a party issue. This is a leadership issue. Power corrupts. The only way out of his is a massive overhaul of the political system that makes 'professional politicians' a thing of the past.

> You see, we the people are staunchly opposed.

Doubtful. We on hackernews are staunchly opposed. Most regular people either support or don't care.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#136

Post by piltdownman »

patates wrote: post #13
Yokolos wrote: post #3

I can't believe with our history involving the Third Reich and the Stasi that we aren't staunchly opposed. Especially with the impending political upheaval when AfD finally gets enough votes to form a ruling government. Our politicians are insanely shortsighted and somehow don't understand the danger they're enabling.

I didn't think this was even possible. Can EU laws actually override the constitutional rights of member states? I was under the impression that the principle of supremacy isn't absolute and doesn't extend to overriding a country's fundamental constitutional rights. If that's not the case, the danger isn't limited to just Germany. With authoritarian regimes gaining power everywhere, it would only take a few of them w…

For the most part yes, with caveats.

Specifically for Ireland, we are the only EU member state where the Constitution ordains a referendum to validate ratification of any amendments that result in a transfer of sovereignty to the European Union; such as the Nice Treaty which we can prevent from passing on an EU level. Ratification of other Treaties without the sovereignty component is decided upon by the states' national parliaments in all other member states.

Ireland, Netherlands, and Luxembourg also have veto powers when it comes to EU wide regulations. That's why Article 116 exists.

In the particular, the Seville Declaration recognised the right of Ireland (and all other member states) to decide in accordance with National Constitutions and laws whether and how to participate in any activities under the European Security and Defence Policy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seville_Declarations_on_the_Tr...

It's enshrined in German Case Law as 'Identitätsvorbehalt'.

https://www.bpb.de/kurz-knapp/lexika/das-europalexikon/30945...

The Polish constitutional court has also ruled that EU law does not supercede national law. Thus, primacy of EU law is wholly rejected in Poland.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/10/07/polish-court-rules-some-...

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#137

Post by waxyalan »

fwsgonzo wrote: post #112
flanked-evergl wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the UK citizens want Chat Control they should have it. If they don't, they should not elect a government that wants it. Same goes for almost every issue the EU is pushing. Not everyone in the EU needs Chat Control just because the UK citizens really want a government that will give them Chat Control.

Is there any living person that thinks the UK people want ChatControl? No? Me neither.

With 69% of people supporting the Online Safety Act [1] I'm confident there are people in the UK that would also support Chat Control

[1] https://yougov.co.uk/technology/articles/52693-how-have-brit...

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#138

Post by pclmulqdq »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #133
outime wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists Maybe it's time to start considering the current individuals in power as extremists? Just because their speech is more 'peaceful' doesn't mean their actions aren't extremist in nature.

> Maybe it's time to start considering the current individuals in power as extremists? And what would this change?

The people in power.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#139

Post by moffkalast »

gadders wrote: post #8
Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want."

Yeah the Commission really needs to go, MEPs need to be able to propose laws. That's really all there is to it to fix the entire situation.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#140

Post by the_gipsy »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #47
Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

Democracy is incompatible with freedom by definition, it's the dictatorship of the majority over the minority. Especially in a time where controlling public opinion is just a matter of running targeted ad campaigns on social medias and buying newspapers and tv stations. If we like freedom we need to get rid of power centralisation, as much as possible, and give back the power to the individual by removing as many law…

> it's the dictatorship of the majority over the minority.

That's very naïve.

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