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Should we drain the Everglades?

rabbitcavern.substack.com

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Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#91

Halfway in I realized the author is just narrating the Wikipedia article. If you'd rather just read it without the attempts to be funny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draining_and_development_of_th...

What's not funny is the amount of podcast episodes that are two guys summarizing the wikipedia article, trying to be funny.

When civilization ends, we will look back at podcast episodes more numerous than the stars in the sky, and wonder if it that was really the most productive use of our entropy.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#92

One thing I don’t understand is why so many appreciate the Everglades. To me a landscape infested with aggressive animals (gators) doesn’t sound attractive or safe. Between them and the invasive snakes I feel like you would need to be on guard all the time. Maybe drain it, replace it with different animals that are friendly, and then refill it. I’m only sort of joking.

I have never been there and don't plan to. Still I wish for it to exist, so the many complicated, wild, strange and wonderful creatures and plants that have been dependent on that ecosystem for ages can continue to exist.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#93

One thing I don’t understand is why so many appreciate the Everglades. To me a landscape infested with aggressive animals (gators) doesn’t sound attractive or safe. Between them and the invasive snakes I feel like you would need to be on guard all the time. Maybe drain it, replace it with different animals that are friendly, and then refill it. I’m only sort of joking.

I think there's a bit of "Chesterton's fence" with these issues. If you don't know enough about the ecosystem to appreciate its complexity (aggressive animals are a tiny part of what's going on there) then you definitely shouldn't be allowed to remove or change it. Human ecological interventions have a bad track record.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#94
post #9

Halfway in I realized the author is just narrating the Wikipedia article. If you'd rather just read it without the attempts to be funny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draining_and_development_of_th...

Wish I noticed before submitting, I would have just shared that instead. Oh well. Thanks.

Normally I don't, but liked the humour.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Even putting aside that it destroys incredible natural beauty for land that's not even productively useful, it astounds me that people still buy into major terraforming projects. Every single time it's had absolutely horrendous consequences often with millions of human deaths attached. Don't make large changes to chaotic systems! Ah, yes, terrible consequences, such as, the irrigation and suitability for farmland of…

> the irrigation and suitability for farmland of central California The unsustainable irrigation that's draining aquifers during droughts and causing permanent damage[1] to groundwater retention? The irrigation that's causing changes in land topography[2]? > the lack of frequent flooding of the Mississippi river You mean the system which is a well known ecological disaster?[3][4][5] And no frequent flooding? Since 20…

This is exactly the sort of ignorant of the past viewpoint I was complaining about.

The part of CA we're talking about was a desert shithole before (arguably still is). There's debate about just how much we can sustainably irrigate it, but at least we can irrigate it. The alternative is basically no agricultural activity. Maybe some grazing.

Ditto for the Mississippi. It floods "a little" now vs "somewhere on it is getting wiped out just about every year" before. If it's only happening once a decade now that's a huge improvement. You can mislead all you want by saying things like "worst since X" and whatnot but the fact of the matter is that the system clearly works ok if most of the Xs are from before the system was there.

The material wealth generated by the economic activity enabled by these two projects is almost impossible to quantify.

I think it speaks volumes that you didn't even attempt to address my 3rd example.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel about Holland?

I feel that Holland does not have hurricanes. For context; only the hurricane we have a clear record of had 8.5 meter storm surges. I’m not sure, can the Dutch barriers hold that back?

1953 was 5.6m above mean sea levels.

but parts of the Netherlands are -3 below sea level, it kinda evens out.

I think the other point to mention is that there isn't one barrier, there are a fuck load of them. (https://nltimes.nl/2024/09/03/tech-failure-nearly-caused-mas... but they also need to be close to work....)

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#97
post #39
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? That's like being afraid of mosquitoes. You can't even really feel a leech.

Well GP didn't say they were afraid. I have pretty much the same reaction of being "freaked out" by leeches too. And while my reaction to mosquitoes is hardly the same, I'm going to avoid both if I possibly can, which seems entirely reasonable to me Anyway you don't feel leeches coming off? That's surprising.

That's right, I (GP) am not really afraid of them, I just find leeches and bloodsuckers quite unpleasant.

A funny story: a few years ago I went canoeing up a small river with my younger cousin. There's not a lot of current because the river is shallow and there are beaver dams around every corner. Most of the dams are unused and broken up, but the river's so shallow in the late summer that they block quite a bit of water anyway and necessitate portaging.

My cousin, being young, gets bored and stops padding, though he's still willing to help portage. We zig zag up the small river, crashing into either side every few paddlestrokes, because I hadn't realized that being the heavier one, I should be in the back of the canoe.

Eventually we get to a large felled tree blocking the river, and we attempt to portage around it, but the banks are quite steep and thick with brush, and I end up losing the canoe down the river. The current is slow, still, but the canoe is floating away, so I have to strip down and jump in after it. Unfortunately my feet touched the bottom and I was covered in bloodsuckers large and small, some of which hid themselves under my feet and between my toes for the rest of the excursion.

When I got back to the house, I lifted my leg, put my foot in the sink, and said "get the salt!"

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#98
post #78
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I enjoyed the author's style, personally

Felt like AI to me

Please tell me which AI writes like that by default so I can recommend it to everyone who copy-paste the obnoxious chatGPT slop answers in the comment sections.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nature does not exist for humanity's comfort or aesthetic preferences To be fair, in most religions (including christianity and atheism) it kinda does

Doesn't matter what those religions claim, nature existed long before humans and exists beyond humans and will exist long after us. On earth, there are living creatures with their own motivations that inhabit all the remote wildernesses and deep seas. And life may exist on other planets.

> nature existed long before humans and exists beyond humans and will exist long after us

If this is true (and I believe it is), then it does not really matter much what humanity does in the big picture. Might as well drain some swamps and seas to reclaim some land.

> On earth, there are living creatures with their own motivations that inhabit all the remote wildernesses and deep seas

You can both acknowledge that, and believe that human must do what's good for humans and animals that are good for humans.

Re: Should we drain the Everglades?

#100

As a Pasco county alumni, I think we should drop the people who want to drain the everglades off in the everglades and leave them in there until they gain an appreciation for the scenery.

Not sure is that would work, as @fishinggarrett will yoink them for being an invasive species.
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