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When the job search becomes impossible

jeffwofford.com

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Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#301

Post by whycome »

hansvm wrote: post #287
saulpw wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For 1200 applications, a couple hours translates to less than 10 seconds per application. In the age of LLMs, why do you think you'd be able to discern whether an application was fake in 10 seconds? Remember, it's not "obviously fake", it's "designed to con you" fake.

I don't know which 1200 applications they saw, but IME they're a lot better at trying to con you than succeeding. LLMs aren't great for a lot of use cases (yet?), and this is one of those areas where reality doesn't match the dream: 1. ~10% of applications are over-tailored. Really? You did with exactly matching our job description at $BigCo 3 years before the language existed and 5 years before we pioneered it? The…

It's clear your org is looking specifically at coders/programmers. That's very different from the "academic research" background that the OP suggested. It takes a different type of analysis and vetting.

And different types of jobs require skillsets that aren't adequately conveyed in a traditional resume.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#302

Post by yoyohello13 »

carlosjobim wrote: post #272
alsetmusic wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think "most people in the real world" have at least a few rungs between their current situation and true homelessness. This is one of the most out-of-touch HN comments I've seen in a while. Most people are not nearly as privileged as the community on these forums. Not even all the people posting here are fully removed from the risk of being out on their ass. Some have moved from other parts of their home country…

> I can't believe how tone deaf it is to suggest that most people have multiple rungs upon which to fall back. There are rungs which are available to the population at large, so all of us have those privileges. For example the armed forces are recruiting. They will put a roof over your head and food in your belly, as well as give you medical coverage.

Not if you’re over 35 they won’t.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#303

Post by aakresearch »

hansvm wrote: post #287
saulpw wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For 1200 applications, a couple hours translates to less than 10 seconds per application. In the age of LLMs, why do you think you'd be able to discern whether an application was fake in 10 seconds? Remember, it's not "obviously fake", it's "designed to con you" fake.

I don't know which 1200 applications they saw, but IME they're a lot better at trying to con you than succeeding. LLMs aren't great for a lot of use cases (yet?), and this is one of those areas where reality doesn't match the dream: 1. ~10% of applications are over-tailored. Really? You did with exactly matching our job description at $BigCo 3 years before the language existed and 5 years before we pioneered it? The…

Your take is very sensible and I agree with it 100%, but the reality is that (by my assessment) it is absolutely not present in the wall of ATS filters one's job application is up against. I've sent hundred of CV/cover letters over last ten months, none of them are touched by LLM. Most cover letters I manually tailored to re-frame in line with job ad - where I cared a lot, some I just made with my generic template - still manually - where I couldn't be bothered to care. Invariably I either received no response at all, or for remaining 10% I received a generic rejection email, identically worded and styled in almost all cases.

Here it is, if you are curious:

"Thank you for your interest in the position at in . Unfortunately, we will not be moving forward with your application, but we appreciate your time and interest in ."

The Resume I am sending out is just an evolution of one that worked very well for me for 25+ years. The roles, as far as I am able to see, are 80%-95% keyword match, with the non-matched keywords being exceedingly superficial. Yes, I haven't listed "blob storage", but guess what else I have used but haven't listed: "semicolon", "variable declaration" and "for-loops". Yet in this day and age one seems to be punished for not doing so.

I am very principled in not letting any AI anywhere close to my CV, because I think the usefulness of signal it conveys rests solely on it being addressed to and read by human, hence it has to be fully authored and tailored by human too. But these days this idea has completely flipped. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Standing by principles could lead to literal dying. Personally, I made peace with dying, but I cannot allow my family to go homeless. As such, I don't see it below me to go down the path of mass-blasting heavily over-tailored Resumes. If it bumps my chances from 0.05% to 0.2%, that's a four-fold increase that may be the difference between, literally, life and death. The organic job search with my natural skills and authentic ways of presentation I relied on for twenty years is dead.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#304

Post by adonese »

Worth to mention is do reach to your friends and network telling them you were let go of / looking for a job. There's no shame in that, and in fact, it can help a lot.

Another small points: reduce your expenses. Basically plan for the worst in terms of budgeting. Widen your search space. There are other younger markets in global south you can also approach.

Theres this expression i couldn't exactly translate to English. It goes along the lines of loosen up your body (literal translation), but it's more about yielding to the flow and less about physically doing so.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#305

Post by titanomachy »

renewiltord wrote: post #165
Avicebron wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might need to get out more, I've lived it, I've been around people who live it every day. I met someone for the first time in like 15 years (old school semi-acquaintance), something like the second thing we started talking about was how rough it was just finding and paying for an apartment in the remote super "LCOL" place we found ourselves. Think about it, I'm guessing the guy welding the beams in your kid's sch…

Getting out more won’t help in this case because I will be walking around SOMA. The fact of the matter is that the stat is made up by a payday loan company and has no bearing on reality. People like to share it because they are LLM like and just repeat things without looking at the data. “Hallucinations” are the common way that humans experience the world. World models born of pure fiction. Also wtf I know journeyman…

Thanks for sharing the slowboring blog post. I didn't know that stat came from payday loan companies, which definitely makes it suspect. Encouraging to hear that 55% of Americans have enough cash on hand for 3 months of expenses, and most of them have less liquid resources they could draw on if they needed more.

However, saying that the median American household has ~$200k net worth doesn't necessarily mean that they're doing great. A lot of the burden of funding retirement falls on the individual in the US, meaning if you're 60 and only have $200k of net worth in a M/HCOL city you're still potentially kind of fucked.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#306

Post by titanomachy »

rr808 wrote: post #228
titanomachy wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "most people in the real world" have at least a few rungs between their current situation and true homelessness. Many people have some sort of family or other community that they could lean on, even in America where family ties are weaker than any other place I know. I have a couple friends who haven't had steady work in years, and they still eke out a pretty reasonable existence living with friends and famil…

> I have a couple friends who haven't had steady work in years, and they still eke out a pretty reasonable existence living with friends and family What about their wife and children? Do they get to stay with them too?

No, the people I'm thinking of are childless. They recognize that their level of stability and functioning is not currently high enough to support a family.

I didn't say that they're thriving and living their dream, just that they're still a couple rungs above homeless.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#308

Post by titanomachy »

alsetmusic wrote: post #191
titanomachy wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think "most people in the real world" have at least a few rungs between their current situation and true homelessness. Many people have some sort of family or other community that they could lean on, even in America where family ties are weaker than any other place I know. I have a couple friends who haven't had steady work in years, and they still eke out a pretty reasonable existence living with friends and famil…

> I think "most people in the real world" have at least a few rungs between their current situation and true homelessness. This is one of the most out-of-touch HN comments I've seen in a while. Most people are not nearly as privileged as the community on these forums. Not even all the people posting here are fully removed from the risk of being out on their ass. Some have moved from other parts of their home country…

> think people in the Bay Area who moved for a job and have no family in the same job market

If they've failed to find a job for long enough that they're about to be homeless, does it really make sense to remain in the most expensive housing market in the country?

I think it's equally out of touch to imply that if you select a random person from across America (the richest country in the world) you will land on someone who is an inch from homelessness, with no close family or community, massive debt, and living in terror of the next layoff. Certainly there are people in that situation, but to imply that it's somehow the median American experience is to caricature the country.

All I said is that "most people" have rungs to fall back on, not "everyone".

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#309

Post by aakresearch »

Scoundreller wrote: post #277
hansvm wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must be missing something. 1200 real applications are hard to sort through. 1200 mostly fake applications are much easier. Hiring is a high-leverage activity, and it's absolutely worth spending a couple hours going through those by hand.

> 1200 real applications are hard to sort through. Probably not much yield in going through more than a few hundred. Shuffle them around, start skimming through and throw out the rest once you realize you’re just seeing more of the same. Pat yourself on the back and mutter “you need to be skilled and lucky to work here”

> Pat yourself on the back and mutter “you need to be skilled and lucky to work here”

It would be absolutely amazing if employers and recruiters finally were doing exactly this. We are in this dead end precisely because everyone is under false illusion that their pool of candidates has a hidden gem outshining everybody else in existence, and they absolutely need to sift through the whole pool to find this gem. As a result, all pools are never exhausted and only ever spreading, with more and more desperate people sucked into multiples of them.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#310

Post by gyomu »

Marsymars wrote: post #284
gyomu wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All former US presidents who died in the 21st century died well over the age of 90. Don't underestimate what access to the best medical care in the world will do, regardless of your lifestyle.

Not sure it helps all that much: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/billionaires-death-a...

"But the truth — despite the unique challenges that accompany majority stakes in the world’s resources — is that most of the ultrarich seem to die bloodless, unperturbed deaths, and at advanced ages [...] The Dead Billionaires of 2022–23 enjoyed an average lifespan of almost 86 years, outperforming average Americans by more than ten years."
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