Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is something about Club of Rome to systems thinking that is similar to the Dijkstra's observation about Basic and programming. Articles debunking them are always full of fundamental misunderstandings about the discipline. (The ones supporting them are obviously wrong.) And people focusing on understanding the discipline never actually refer to them in any way.
That's because its much easier to write an article dissing on a discipline if you don't really understand any of it.
Magical systems thinking
101–106 of 106 posts
Re: Magical systems thinking
#102What an interesting and strange article. The author barely offers a definition of "systems thinking", only names one person to represent it, and then claims to refute the whole discipline based on a single incorrect prediction and the fact that government is bad at software projects. It's not clear what positive suggestions this article offers except to always disregard regulation and build your own thing from scratc…
>claims to refute the whole discipline based on a single incorrect prediction
I'm not so sure about "incorrect" even. The retrospectives have been generally positive.[0][1]Citing economic growth as a counterexample is pretty silly, because in the Limits models many parameters look great right up until the collapse.[2]
I would encourage everyone to see how the original authors describe their findings[2][3], rather than (potentially motivated) retellings.
[0] https://www.livescience.com/collapse-human-society-limits-to...
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/limits...
Re: Magical systems thinking
#103What an interesting and strange article. The author barely offers a definition of "systems thinking", only names one person to represent it, and then claims to refute the whole discipline based on a single incorrect prediction and the fact that government is bad at software projects. It's not clear what positive suggestions this article offers except to always disregard regulation and build your own thing from scratc…
> The author barely offers a definition of "systems thinking", only names one person to represent it, and then claims to refute the whole discipline based on a single incorrect prediction and the fact that government is bad at software projects. All valid criticisms, but somehow it sounds exactly like something a member of inept bureaucracy would say.
Re: Magical systems thinking
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The author barely offers a definition of "systems thinking", only names one person to represent it, and then claims to refute the whole discipline based on a single incorrect prediction and the fact that government is bad at software projects. All valid criticisms, but somehow it sounds exactly like something a member of inept bureaucracy would say.
This seems lazy. It's ad hominem but not even, since you don't know what inept bureaucracy I am defending. Is there any argument that you couldn't level this accusation at?
When inept bureaucracy is put in the spotlight usually someone pops up to defend how much of important work they are doing and how the things they deal with are just so complicated. And how criticisms are unfair and unfounded.
Re: Magical systems thinking
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
You make a fine point. My simplified version of it is that there is no such thing as an isolated system. Things change. A system optimized for one environment is likely to fail when things change. Most of the hugely successful firms of today focus more on controlling their environment than on developing a capacity to adapt to unforeseeable consequences of unforeseen changes in their environment, even the ones that th…
I think we were not using the same definition of “system” :) > there is no such thing as an isolated system. Very true. Look no further than evolutionary biology, you see this all the time where extinctions occur because the environment changes such that the system is no longer optimal.
What if we looked at the extinct species as constituents that have been removed because they were obsolete in the system? That way, the system remains optimal, without resisting change.
The system of humanity requires a lot. We used to say "survival of the fittest", which meant survival of the fittest and the "most aware", meaning being able to distinguish which survival strategy is the most viable for a given organism.
Fight, flight, freeze, dominance, independence, submission, DIY, DOBUY; the latter are especially interesting given how reduced information about the requirements and the sensitivities of the individual body can cripple your organs to a point that is more beneficial for some interest group than it is to you; in other words: someone can make sure you are stupid enough to be abused for some specific task until you can be discarded of. At this point we don't know if the system will survive more than one period because of the interest group or suffer within one or more periods because of that interest group.
In evolutionary biology, more symbiotic organisms and systems survived a lot longer that those who were less symbiotic, on scales that modern humans can't put into adequate numbers yet.
Isolated systems do exist. They can be isolated and they can self-isolate for various reasons and by various means. This happens even in species/systems we mostly consider mostly unconscious while definitely sentient and aware.
Wear and tear and maintenance, leeching and seeding, putting info and questions into words and lurking; none of these really attach a system to another by default, by design or via behavior, reward and punishment. The rules go beyond that and stretch longer time frames than we account for.
Thinking out loud here, btw.