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Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

sdstate.edu

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Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#11

Post by quotemstr »

rafram wrote: post #9
quotemstr wrote: post #3

> grapevine The headline is practically a demonic summoning ritual for the naturalistic fallacy. The article is talking about cellulose. We've had cellulose forever. Cellulose is dirt cheap. We are a post-cellulose-scarcity civilization. Extracting it from grapevines ought to be mocked as our century's version of bringing coal to Newcastle. There's a reason we don't use cellulose packaging for everything and it has n…

The article explains why grapevine waste is a concern, and why it’s a particularly effective source of cellulose. > What useful research could we have funded instead? This research seems useful enough to me.

> grapevine waste is a concern, and why it’s a particularly effective source of cellulose.

We have markets and prices. If cellulose became scarce enough that the cheapest source for it became agricultural waste, we wouldn't need the government to fund research into an extraction process. Industry would be all over it on its own.

State funding for research is there to solve the problem of industry incentives being aligned against foundational, long term research. What we're looking at here isn't anything like that. It's just one more organic extraction process, another entry in a long tradition of such things.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#12

Post by kulahan »

AfterHIA wrote: post #2

This is why I'm constantly asking: why aren't we planting vineyards in the Wasatch Front? Silicon Slopes didn't work out but can we at least farm some effing grapes?

Despite there being many great breweries in that region, most people shy away (initially) from a state run by a prohibition-style religion. Probably illogical, but definitely real in my experience.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#13

Post by quotemstr »

542458 wrote: post #7
quotemstr wrote: post #3

> grapevine The headline is practically a demonic summoning ritual for the naturalistic fallacy. The article is talking about cellulose. We've had cellulose forever. Cellulose is dirt cheap. We are a post-cellulose-scarcity civilization. Extracting it from grapevines ought to be mocked as our century's version of bringing coal to Newcastle. There's a reason we don't use cellulose packaging for everything and it has n…

The argument, which doesn't seem insane, is that this film is useful because it is particularly optically clear and strong, which are not properties I would have expected from cellulose. I agree 17 days is too short, but that seems like an interesting opportunity for future research. I would highlight that the number is 17 days when buried in wet soil , not sitting around on a shelf. Cardboard will break down when bu…

> which are not properties I would have expected from cellulose

You know why we've lost so much early cinema history to fire and moisture?

Because silent-film-era film is made of cellulose. It burns. Rapidly. Photography pioneers knew that. They used cellulose anyway because it's flexible and transparent. Right technological decision at the time.

We've known about cellulose properties for literally over a century. There's nothing new here.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#14

Post by kulahan »

Arch-TK wrote: post #8
quotemstr wrote: post #3

> grapevine The headline is practically a demonic summoning ritual for the naturalistic fallacy. The article is talking about cellulose. We've had cellulose forever. Cellulose is dirt cheap. We are a post-cellulose-scarcity civilization. Extracting it from grapevines ought to be mocked as our century's version of bringing coal to Newcastle. There's a reason we don't use cellulose packaging for everything and it has n…

You know, I'm sure if biodiesel/bioethanol can be a thing, then extracting cellulose from grapevine can make it too. It's just a matter of marketing it correctly ;)

The point is that it’s like finding research into how to acquire air. It’s everywhere - just go collect some. Who needs this?

I think it’s a valid point.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#15

Post by cmrdporcupine »

Vitis riparia (wild grapevine endemic to the whole eastern side of North America, grows like a weed all over extremely disease resistant and cold hardy) and hybrids with it also produce gum arabic from their spring pruning wounds: https://agresearchmag.ars.usda.gov/2015/dec/grape/

Combined with the high sugars in the fruit and this cellulose things, overall an extremely useful plant.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#16

Post by DemocracyFTW2 »

542458 wrote: post #7
quotemstr wrote: post #3

> grapevine The headline is practically a demonic summoning ritual for the naturalistic fallacy. The article is talking about cellulose. We've had cellulose forever. Cellulose is dirt cheap. We are a post-cellulose-scarcity civilization. Extracting it from grapevines ought to be mocked as our century's version of bringing coal to Newcastle. There's a reason we don't use cellulose packaging for everything and it has n…

The argument, which doesn't seem insane, is that this film is useful because it is particularly optically clear and strong, which are not properties I would have expected from cellulose. I agree 17 days is too short, but that seems like an interesting opportunity for future research. I would highlight that the number is 17 days when buried in wet soil , not sitting around on a shelf. Cardboard will break down when bu…

> optically clear and strong, which are not properties I would have expected from cellulose

You never heard of Cellophane? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#19

Post by loktarogar »

exabrial wrote: post #17

Yeah that’s the problem. Plastic solves a logistics problem, not a structural problem. Are your Twinkies stuck in a hot truck in Texas for a week? No problem!

It doesn't _only_ solve long-term logistical problems. Plastics are used for things like takeout containers, drink cups and straws, amongst others - things that are only needed for a short time.

Re: Grapevine canes can be converted into plastic-like material that will decompose

#20

Post by exabrial »

loktarogar wrote: post #19
exabrial wrote: post #17

Yeah that’s the problem. Plastic solves a logistics problem, not a structural problem. Are your Twinkies stuck in a hot truck in Texas for a week? No problem!

It doesn't _only_ solve long-term logistical problems. Plastics are used for things like takeout containers, drink cups and straws, amongst others - things that are only needed for a short time.

Is your shipment of drink containers stuck in a hot truck in Texas for a month? No problem! They’re plastic
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