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My thoughts on renting versus buying

milesbarr.me

71–80 of 318 posts

Re: My thoughts on renting versus buying

#71
I like the general idea of this post but in the end I think it suffers from being too generalized and a little bit too renting biased.

> The math can always be made to “work” if you’re willing to adjust what or where you buy.

This is essentially a useless statement, the result of the math is either that either renting or buying makes you end up more wealthy. Whether it "works" or not isn't even the question, the question is which choice makes you more wealthy over time (more on that later).

For that, it's more helpful to use a rent vs. buy calculator [1] with the details of your market plugged in. Whether renting or buying makes more sense for you has a lot to do with where you live.

Let's continue on to the next section, "Buying a Home Isn’t Really an Investment."

The obvious rebuttal to this is "of course it is!"

> The decision is usually driven by lifestyle factors such as proximity to work, school districts, family, and the neighborhood.

All of these factors play in to whether or not the property is a good investment. Places that are in good school districts and have close proximity to job centers are good investments. The real estate investors that this section mentions think about these exact same things before starting projects.

Next section: "People Tend to Overbuy." Is there any data or evidence behind this whole paragraph? Are we just saying that people who own homes buy more furniture and stuff than renters? Maybe they do, but even if that's true could that be because they're more wealthy in the first place? Who knows, this entire paragraph is all assumptions and nothing backing it up.

Next section: "The Flexibility of Renting Is Undervalued"

6/10 Americans live within 10 miles of where they grew up, and 8/10 Americans live within 100 miles of where they grew up. [2] Is the flexibility of renting actually needed for most Americans? Are Americans missing out on job promotions because they own homes? (It's not like you can't sell a home quickly)

I would counter the premise of this section with "The stability of home ownership is undervalued" and "the 30-year fixed mortgage is a gigantic subsidy to homebuyers." By taking out a mortgage, homeowners are locking in the majority of their monthly cost with the exception of maintenance, utilities, and property taxes. They sit in their house for a few years and they end up paying below market on monthly payment compared to renters. So maybe they "overbought" a home with too many bedrooms to fit all phases of life, but it doesn't really matter because after the first ~5-10 years of home ownership they are going to be paying less than market-rate rentals.

The 30-year fixed mortgage allows homeowners to refinance and minimize their rate pretty much any time the rate drops, so basically every renter is always getting the lowest rate possible since from their purchase date forward, and it never goes up.

The last section: Why the Home Investment Myth Persists

Sure, this section is technically correct, someone investing money elsewhere is going to beat real estate on returns. But you can't live in an index fund, an index fund may not have the same protections [a] and tax incentives as a home, and it is a fact that most people are not disciplined with investments which means the forced investment of a mortgage's end result is that homeowners are far more wealthier than renters on average. [3]

[a] For example, your home equity doesn't count toward the ability to pay calculation for FAFSA, and you are generally protected from having your home taken away from you if you get into most debt situations. Check out how OJ Simpson avoided paying his civil judgment: https://www.kiplinger.com/retirement/how-did-oj-simpson-avoi...

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/upshot/buy-rent-cal...

[2] https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/07/theres-no-pla...

[3] https://www.nar.realtor/magazine/real-estate-news/study-home...

Re: My thoughts on renting versus buying

#72
post #4

All I know is my mortgage is $1,800 a month and to rent my place now is at least $6K/month. I love knowing that my monthly payment can't go up.

Who are these people who can afford $6k/month for a rental? It has to be a very small percentage of the population, yet I see these kind of numbers thrown around a lot.

Statistically, I’m in the top ~5% of income earners (from the data I can find), with no debt, and I couldn’t afford $6k/month.

I bought a house because I don't understand the rental market anymore. I don’t really like being a home owner, but the rent prices these days are so out of hand. I think the most I ever paid for rent was $1,680 and I felt irresponsible doing that. I don’t know how all these rentals are full with the prices they’re charging. Does everyone have roommates?

Re: My thoughts on renting versus buying

#73
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the stability of buying It depends. Personally, after witnessing both sides of the coin second-hand, I am not leaning in the direction of either buying or renting in absolute. It is highly dependent on the context and circumstances of a specific situation/market. I am aware that this is just an anecdote (i.e., it isn't going to say much about the overall state of things across all states in the US), but there is a…

Buying a condo is half buying and half renting.

A condo somehow combines the worst aspects of buying and renting.

Re: My thoughts on renting versus buying

#74
In current market, owning dozens of properties is not a good investment. Owning thousands is. And, in my opinion, which does not mean much, is one of the problems. I have a friend living somewhere in the UK. He wants to buy an apartment. He has the conditions for it, but he cannot because every single building in his city belongs to the same company who keeps them to inflate the prices.

Why there is no exponential taxes for owning that many properties after they are finished?

Re: My thoughts on renting versus buying

#75
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the stability of buying It depends. Personally, after witnessing both sides of the coin second-hand, I am not leaning in the direction of either buying or renting in absolute. It is highly dependent on the context and circumstances of a specific situation/market. I am aware that this is just an anecdote (i.e., it isn't going to say much about the overall state of things across all states in the US), but there is a…

Buying a condo is half buying and half renting.

As an approximation, condo fees make explicit a number of recurring costs that are only implicit when you own. E.g. heating/cooling, maintenance, landscaping, accumulating an emergency fund, etc. Thus, if a condo is half-renting, so is buying a house.

Re: My thoughts on renting versus buying

#76
post #49

First of all, I fundamentally disagree on the notion that buying a home should be considered an investment (I would go as far as to argue that this attitude is part of the reason the real estate markets are so broken in many places of the world). I don't want to be rich and I don't need to be - I just want a place where my kids some day can grow up, where I can enjoy the sun in the garden and invite family and friend…

When I bought me house what I eventually decided is you can't use ordinary financial metrics for owner occupied housing. The reason is buying a house on credit is essentially the only investment you can make with the money you have available for housing.

My opinion is the issue with renting and housing in general is the world wide financialization of real estate. It's being treated as a primary investment instead of the secondary investment it is. Some fraction of people are getting exceedingly wealthy but there are deep negative effects.

My bet is the crashing fertility rates are likely what's going to put a stop to it. Notable every 15-20 years we have a bigger than the previous financial crisis. Once populations start to decline the bottom will fall out.

Re: My thoughts on renting versus buying

#77
post #4

All I know is my mortgage is $1,800 a month and to rent my place now is at least $6K/month. I love knowing that my monthly payment can't go up.

Who are these people who can afford $6k/month for a rental? It has to be a very small percentage of the population, yet I see these kind of numbers thrown around a lot. Statistically, I’m in the top ~5% of income earners (from the data I can find), with no debt, and I couldn’t afford $6k/month. I bought a house because I don't understand the rental market anymore. I don’t really like being a home owner, but the rent…

The $6k number is a touch high, but the answer is realistically 30-something DINKs and up. I make $150k a year, let’s say, and if I have a spouse with a corporate career let’s say it’s similar so maybe $250k-300k per year in income? Well that’s about $12,000 in income after taxes, medical, and a 10% retirement contribution.

So, yes, $6k per month is house-poor numbers, but it’s workable for sure. If you’re even better off, good for you, it may fall into affordable range.

Re: My thoughts on renting versus buying

#78
post #62

I've seen these critiques for years. and while its not necessarily wrong, I believe it under weights a few points: - Fixing your housing costs against inflation: You can't count on housing price increases, but you can count on inflation. If you buy a house and your mortgage payment is > rent. Overtime it will naturally flip. $1 no longer buys me a chocolate bar, and $800/month no longer gets me a 2 bed apartment. - L…

> No one can evict me into a hot rental market to suit their needs.

The bank can, if you take out too many loans against your house that you can’t pay back. When you barrow against your house you’re increasing your risk.

“Rational people don’t risk what they have and need for what they don’t have and don’t need.” - Warren Buffett

My house is paid off now and I can’t think of anything that would make me barrow against it. Setting aside variable maintenance costs, with only having to worry about property taxes now, I could work at Costco and make ends meet now. That gives me some peace of mind against an uncertain job market. A loan against the house would change that equation wildly.

Re: My thoughts on renting versus buying

#79
Counterpoint: buying is always better, people just can't afford it.

Here where I live the minimum price for rent is monthly mortgage installement, meaning that you'll pay for rent at least as much as you'd pay for mortgage.

But after you pay your mortgage you still have an asset in your hand. You can pass it on to your children or you can sell it when you're old, downsize (or even rent) and get some cash for your retirement. If you rent you're left with nothing.

Then why is not everyone buying? Because few people can afford the 20% downpayement needed for mortgage. In reality it's even more because you have to furnish and/or renovate the place.

Renting has it's charm for youngsters, but once you get older and you start acummulating things the lack of stability and the danger of your landlord having a change of heart and breaking the contract (either because he decided to sell it or give it to a child) becomes a pain in the ass. Even having a pet is troublesome and many property owners will refuse to rent if you have a dog or a cat.

Re: My thoughts on renting versus buying

#80
post #15

> The Flexibility of Renting Is Undervalued And the stability of buying is undervalued. It's telling that this article frames housing as an investment vehicle rather than as a basic necessity. And it's not just a necessity because it shelters you from the elements and gives you storage for your stuff; it anchors you in a neighborhood and allows you to begin forming a local community. The flexibility of renting that t…

I don't know many homeowners who formed "local communities" with their neighbors. I know a few, but not many. And I know renters who know all their neighbors well. Seems more like a personality trait than something enabled by owning where you live.
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