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Life, work, death and the peasant: Rent and extraction

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Re: Life, work, death and the peasant: Rent and extraction

#71

Post by TFYS »

cjfd wrote: post #66
TFYS wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on what the doctor can do with that inequality. If it means the doctor gets paid 20 times more than others then yes that is incompatible with democracy, as over time that wealth difference will be used to increase the inequality. But if the power is limited to only decisions about health, which is necessary for healthcare to function, then it should be acceptable. You'd still have to make sure that even that…

One can argue whether 20 times more is too much or too little but I would say that it is correct that a doctor gets paid quite a bit more than unskilled labor. Some people who become doctors might still go through with it if it were not but most (sane) people would not go through the lengthy and very demanding path that is medical school and residency if it was not a better paid than a job that very many people could…

Sure, I can agree with that. There does need to be some kind of incentive to do jobs that enough people don't naturally want to do. But the differences in rewards should be kept as small as possible and created only as a last resort. As I said, power concentration should only be allowed if absolutely necessary. If no one wants to become a doctor, then I'd consider it absolutely necessary to increase the incentives of doing so bit by bit until we have enough doctors while keeping in mind the risk that comes with the power differentials created. At some point an extra doctor might not be worth the extra risk of power concentration.

Re: Life, work, death and the peasant: Rent and extraction

#72

Post by u02sgb »

lastdong wrote: post #68

The modern UK leasehold system is, in many ways, rooted in the feudal landholding arrangements. In the UK, when buying a house, the buyer sometimes leases the land rather than owning it outright, and must pay ground rent to the landlord. A lease is usually bought for 80 years or more, but occasionally properties are sold with only a few years remaining. If the lease is not renewed, the homeowner risks losing the prop…

Just a point to say leasehold is very rare in Scotland. I remember being told about this when I was looking at places near London and being surprised.

Re: Life, work, death and the peasant: Rent and extraction

#73

Post by lurk2 »

cjfd wrote: post #57
TFYS wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no other way to have a true democracy than to make things as equal as possible. As soon as you allow any level of inequality to exist, the power differentials caused by it will be used to increase the power differential and inequality even more, and over a long period of time you'll end up with a dictatorship. Once you have extreme concentration of power, it's only a matter of time until someone that should n…

This is nonsense. Most/all democracies have laws that only certified doctors can practice medicine. This makes doctors unequal from other people. Is this incompatible with democracy?

> Is this incompatible with democracy?

Yes. This is why every society of note limited the franchise prior to the 1900s. You can only have debates among equals among people who are equal. The sort of equality communists imagine requires that you either radically re-engineer the human pysche or implement Harrison-Bergeron-style handicaps on exceptional people.

Re: Life, work, death and the peasant: Rent and extraction

#74

Post by TFYS »

lurk2 wrote: post #69
TFYS wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no other way to have a true democracy than to make things as equal as possible. As soon as you allow any level of inequality to exist, the power differentials caused by it will be used to increase the power differential and inequality even more, and over a long period of time you'll end up with a dictatorship. Once you have extreme concentration of power, it's only a matter of time until someone that should n…

The basic mechanism you’re describing is essentially accurate, however: > As soon as you allow any level of inequality to exist, the power differentials caused by it will be used to increase the power differential and inequality even more, and over a long period of time you'll end up with a dictatorship. This doesn’t logically follow. The existence of a power differential doesn’t necessitate the differential being ex…

I would say that over a long enough period of time it's unavoidable that a selfish person will use the power to gain more. Selfish people are more likely to seek positions of power, so even if most people are altruistic, the people that seek power are more likely to be selfish.

Re: Life, work, death and the peasant: Rent and extraction

#75

Post by lurk2 »

DeathArrow wrote: post #60
TFYS wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no other way to have a true democracy than to make things as equal as possible. As soon as you allow any level of inequality to exist, the power differentials caused by it will be used to increase the power differential and inequality even more, and over a long period of time you'll end up with a dictatorship. Once you have extreme concentration of power, it's only a matter of time until someone that should n…

Democracy is following people's will, not "making things equal". In a democracy, the people have the power to decide and anyone has the power to elect, be elected and to voice his opinion freely.

> Democracy is following people's will, not "making things equal".

His point is that democratic systems are subverted if absolute equality is not enforced. It’s a crude argument but basically correct. The only way you prevent usurpation is by making sure one individual doesn’t have any obvious means of scaling his influence to the point that he can challenge the democratic militia.

Re: Life, work, death and the peasant: Rent and extraction

#76

Post by lurk2 »

TFYS wrote: post #74
lurk2 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic mechanism you’re describing is essentially accurate, however: > As soon as you allow any level of inequality to exist, the power differentials caused by it will be used to increase the power differential and inequality even more, and over a long period of time you'll end up with a dictatorship. This doesn’t logically follow. The existence of a power differential doesn’t necessitate the differential being ex…

I would say that over a long enough period of time it's unavoidable that a selfish person will use the power to gain more. Selfish people are more likely to seek positions of power, so even if most people are altruistic, the people that seek power are more likely to be selfish.

I’ve come to basically the same conclusion. Attempts to engineer perfect political systems that are immune to this sort of infiltration is like trying to build a structure that will never need to be repaired—you can expend a lot of resources and effort on it upfront, but on a long enough timeline there will be failure modes you didn’t foresee.

Re: Life, work, death and the peasant: Rent and extraction

#77

Post by hdgvhicv »

lastdong wrote: post #68

The modern UK leasehold system is, in many ways, rooted in the feudal landholding arrangements. In the UK, when buying a house, the buyer sometimes leases the land rather than owning it outright, and must pay ground rent to the landlord. A lease is usually bought for 80 years or more, but occasionally properties are sold with only a few years remaining. If the lease is not renewed, the homeowner risks losing the prop…

Vast majority of houses are not leasehold. It’s 125 years at lease, and aside from a couple of decades the ground rent was always a peppercorn (actual ground rents started in the 90s and have now finished)

Re: Life, work, death and the peasant: Rent and extraction

#78

Post by roenxi »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #34
roenxi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Banning campaigning would go a long way. With tongue in cheek, that qualifies you as the "people like Stalin" category. Not a good idea.

And allowing for infinite money to pay for propaganda is somehow not Stalinist?

If you're happy to accept almost literally everyone as Stalinist I suppose so. But if the word is going to mean anything then no, spending a lot on propaganda isn't Stalinist. It is routine governance. If you intend to organise people politically it is going to take a lot of propaganda.

Re: Life, work, death and the peasant: Rent and extraction

#79

Post by mantas »

ch4s3 wrote: post #16
kjkjadksj wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning campaigning would go a long way. The state already mails out voter information containing a little stump speech of each registered candidate at least for Californian elections. Further advertisement is purely propaganda and leads to establishment victories over merit and a genuinely attractive platform.

File this under Lies Engineers Believe About Political Science.

Not 100% what OP proposed, but in my country political funding is extremely capped. Compared to US, campaigns here are tame to say the least. But overall it’s for the better IMO.

Re: Life, work, death and the peasant: Rent and extraction

#80

Post by mantas »

rocqua wrote: post #36

This blog series by Bret Devraux keeps bringing me back to the black death, and how that reformed labor relations. I have heard about that a few times now. But this series really emphasizes how much surplus labor the rich could extract. And hence shows how much social impact it had when that labor reduced, and could suddenly negotiate. I wonder if the black death, and subsequent social change, might have been the bes…

I wonder what would happen given today’s demographic if mass migration was shut down. There may be similar change. But ruling class is hard at work to avoid that.
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