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Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

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Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#841

Post by account42 »

licebmi__at__ wrote: post #840

Leaving personal feelings about the person. What exactly does 2nd amendment guys think using guns to fight "tyranny" looks like? People rising up to a group of people clad on black clothes and an eerily fascist reminiscent symbol ala rickandmorty? Some people using guns to defend themselves against who they believe are the harbingers of this authoritarian State is 2nd amendment working as intended. Not a "tragic but…

You're talking about the murder of a media personality, not a tyrant or even someone who has any say in how the government is run. You don't fight tyranny by eliminating people just because they have different opinions.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#843

Post by loughnane »

password54321 wrote: post #818
loughnane wrote: post #689

The sad irony is that he's at a college campus debating/arguing with people. At their best that's what college campuses are for. I know they haven't been living up to it lately but seeing him gunned down feels like a metaphor. I know he liked to publicize the exchanges where he got the best of someone, and bury the others, and that he was a far, far cry from a public intellectual. Still, he talked to folks about idea…

It is a performance that appears as a debate.

I agree with that. As I said elsewhere it's a shame that we don't get better.

If you compare it with the more sober, reflectful sort (eg russell vs copleston on the existence of God [0]) you can see how far we've fallen.

Nevertheless, his killing I think will make us slide even further.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpADrtr85iM&pp=ygUlYmVydHJhb...

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#844

Post by loughnane »

latexr wrote: post #838
loughnane wrote: post #689

The sad irony is that he's at a college campus debating/arguing with people. At their best that's what college campuses are for. I know they haven't been living up to it lately but seeing him gunned down feels like a metaphor. I know he liked to publicize the exchanges where he got the best of someone, and bury the others, and that he was a far, far cry from a public intellectual. Still, he talked to folks about idea…

Feels like your second paragraph negates the first. That he wasn’t honestly debating ideas but fishing for soundbites to spread hate and appear intellectual, using the backdrop of college campuses to lend legitimacy to his divisive ideas. That is not what college campuses are for, and it is not a debate. I’m not American, I never heard of this guy before. But I saw the video of the last moments and it’s a telling sni…

As I've said in a few other comments, I agree it's a poor "debate". But sadly it's the sort we've got now in the public sphere. I hope for better, but I can't help but think his killing doesn't help.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#845

Post by AbstractH24 »

themgt wrote: post #286

But we have to make an effort in the United States. We have to make an effort to understand, to get beyond, or go beyond these rather difficult times. My favorite poem, my -- my favorite poet was Aeschylus. And he once wrote: "Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God." What we need in the Uni…

While I like that quote, i just went to lookup the speach and was sadden to learn you “sanitized” it. Taking out the phrase “vast majority of white people and vast majority of black people”

That too says something about our times. Maybe a few things. From being unable to trust things without verifying, to people’s willingness to alter the truth to make a point, to how people fear discussing race and gender loud even in passing.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#846

Post by AbstractH24 »

csours wrote: post #137

History books can tell you facts that happened, but they can never truly tell you how it feels. I feel we're riding a knife's edge and there's a hurricane brewing in the gulf of absurdity. ==== Incidentally, I feel like this is why it is so hard to actually learn from history. You can read about the 1918 'Spanish' Flu, but you think "we're smarter now". etc.

I’ve come to realize how sad it is nobody alive today will be alive to see how what’s occurring fits with a multi-century arch of history. The way we examine the Middle Ages or Byzantine Empire.

It would be fascinating to see how 2001-2025 fits into that.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#847

Post by whatever1 »

The argument that I keep hearing that he was just a guy talking does not quite fly.

The most horrible people in history did not do any physical harm to other people themselves. Many were also very nice to hang out with and had lovely families. But they definitely inspired and ordered others to do unimaginably horrible acts.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#848

Post by tyleo »

suzzer99 wrote: post #734

Nick Fuentes built his entire empire on hating Charlie Kirk, and his fans (groypers) are insane. Laura Loomer just came out and attacked Kirk a couple days ago. It's entirely possible he was fragged from the right.

I’ve thought this as well. There is a lot of disagreement within political parties. Given the polarization, I’d wager this is more true today.

You may be stuck with extreme people you disagree with despite leaning one way or another. You just want to dabble in politics but supporters of the parties can be rabid. It can be even harder to get a word out within the echo chamber.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#849

Post by peterspath »

One quote of Charlie’s that resonates deeply with me is:

""" When people stop talking, really bad stuff starts.

When marriages stop talking, divorce happens.

When civilisations stop talking, civil war ensues.

When you stop having a human connection with someone you disagree with, it becomes a lot easier to want to commit violence against that group.

What we as a culture have to get back to, is being able to have reasonable disagreement, where violence is not an option. """

This belief in the power of conversation over conflict defined Charlie’s work. He didn’t just preach ideas; he lived them, fostering discussions that encouraged understanding despite disagreement. I did not agree with all his standpoints, but what I admired most was his insistence that dialogue could bridge divides.

Re: Charlie Kirk killed at event in Utah

#850

Post by bluecheese452 »

Glyptodon wrote: post #557

I'm mildly curious what the reaction to this will be compared to the reaction to other recent political murders, like the Hortmans, or of Thompson. That said, I think people need to recognize that in many aspects what's happening is connected to societal issues that gun control and gun regulations will have very little impact on - remember, even in Japan somebody could make some kind of battery ignited home-made shot…

This is the perfect example of the exception that proves the rule. I mean it is almost shocking that you would try to say this with a straight face.
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