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Anonymous Donor Pays for College of Every Student in Kalamazoo

nytimes.com

61–70 of 124 posts

Re: Anonymous Donor Pays for College of Every Student in Kalamazoo

#61
post #32
post #7

Wow. That's neat. I once had a conversation with a state legislator where he argued it wasn't the responsibility of government to provide grant and loan opportunities for higher education, and that by doing so, the federal government was disincentivizing saving and investing. Instead, he argued universities should be more market driven (which I will concede might introduce more price competition in the face of rapidl…

http://www.finaid.org/savings/tuition-inflation.phtml (those graphs don't really do it justice, but if you know your math you know what a difference being several point ahead of inflation for decades does to the difference in price.) Its a shame that an entire generation of educated Americans are being enslaved by an unparallelled level of debt so early in their lives. The NYTimes has had many articles that give a go…

> I'm an optimist. The problem will fix itself thanks to technology. Education in the future is going to be nearly free. I think it is going to happen a lot sooner than people realize. Runaway education inflation will make even the "expensive" solutions look dirt cheap.

You're presupposing that tuition has anything to do with the cost of providing education, and that tuition will go down if the costs go down. It doesn't. Skyrocketing tuition is the product of schools being non-fungible prestige goods. It's how the price of Prada handbags doesn't have anything to do with their manufacturing cost.

College in the US isn't about education. It's about signaling. And the price of desirable signals, like Stanford or U Michigan, isn't going to go down based on competition from cheaper online educational institutions.

Re: Anonymous Donor Pays for College of Every Student in Kalamazoo

#62
I'd say the kids of Kalamazoo could use a break given the kind of stuff they have to deal with.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/letters/Nose+Hill+Park+...

Note: The above Kalamazoo sheriff is probably not quite as paranoid as the story suggests since Kalamzoo has a murder rate almost 7 times higher than Calgary despite being roughtly 1/14'th the size. If Kalamazoo is that dangerous, it's natural to assume a much bigger city would be even more dangerous. Still, that's one sheriff I wouldn't want to run into in a Kalamazoo park, let alone a dark alley!

Re: Anonymous Donor Pays for College of Every Student in Kalamazoo

#63
post #5

What would be the unintended negative consequences of this? It reminds me of the story of a West African king who went on a pilgrimage to Mecca. On his way to Arabia, the king gifted so much gold to all intervening communities that the price of gold crashed, taking with it the economies of North Africa and Arabia.

The same as any tuition program or grant: When you separate the cost from the consumer, prices skyrocket. With 100% of their tuition being paid by anonymous donors, why should these kids care how much it costs? And if the kids don't care and have a blank check, why shouldn't the schools raise the price tag? I'm just using this an example of unintended consequences in this type of stuff. I'm well aware this handful of…

It doesn't guarantee admission, only funding.

As the article notes, most of the recipients use the grant at the community college, which is the least expensive possibility involving an accredited college and real degree.

Re: Anonymous Donor Pays for College of Every Student in Kalamazoo

#64
post #52
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its a balancing act - but i guess grants is worse than loans. Granting "free" money will indeed cause problems, but a loan that is required to be repaid seems like the right way to go in the long term, provided that after the higher education is completed the individual in question is able to actually provide value.

This has it exactly backwards. Consider this simple (and very simplified) example. The NPV of college is $100k. The marginal student can scrape together $10k to go to college. The marginal cost of a student is less than $10k for the college. How much will the college charge? $10k. What's the benefit to the student? $90k. What if an $89.9k subsidized grant is available? Now the college can charge $99.9k. What's the be…

lets assume the cost of educating a student is going to cost X. The colledge is going to get some percentage of X as profit, no matter what policy the gov't decides.

Now, the question is, what party _should_ be covering for the cost X? In the grant scenario, it is society/tax payers who cover the cost of education. In the load scenario, it is the individual being educated that is covering the cost, deferred to the future.

Either way, it is not the case that the college recieves less profit for the service of educating. To me, incentive alignment is critical to the success of a policy, and i feel that a loan tends to incentivize those who works ultra hard to make it, whilst a grant will not. Now, i m not saying all grants are bad, but grants should be based on academic results, as a reward incentive, where as loans should be made available to all who wants an education.

Re: Anonymous Donor Pays for College of Every Student in Kalamazoo

#65
post #8
post #5

What would be the unintended negative consequences of this? It reminds me of the story of a West African king who went on a pilgrimage to Mecca. On his way to Arabia, the king gifted so much gold to all intervening communities that the price of gold crashed, taking with it the economies of North Africa and Arabia.

Only downside I could possibly see is someone taking their education more lightly because they don't have to pay for it.

[deleted]

Re: Anonymous Donor Pays for College of Every Student in Kalamazoo

#66
post #5

What would be the unintended negative consequences of this? It reminds me of the story of a West African king who went on a pilgrimage to Mecca. On his way to Arabia, the king gifted so much gold to all intervening communities that the price of gold crashed, taking with it the economies of North Africa and Arabia.

You can look to Eastern European economies for that, as they still pick up the tab for majority of university education.

1) There's certain stigma attached to blue-collar jobs now that everyone and their pet hamster are proud bearers of a college diploma. Finding a good plumber is next to impossible.

2) There's a subset of people thrown into permanent unemployment. Might be a cultural thing, but second education is a rare beast (as you hang out with students of the same level pretty much throughout the degree, so there's social pressure to be in the same age group as other classmates), and if your first and only degree is not very employable (hi, History majors), it becomes a constant conversation point of how screwed up the society is when a college graduate cannot find a job.

Re: Anonymous Donor Pays for College of Every Student in Kalamazoo

#67
post #31

On the assumption this is a good thing, let's say every town/state rolls such a scheme out. Now every student in the nation is having their tuition paid. It's also costing about the same amount as if the government levied taxes and paid the costs. A negative, compared to government funding, is that the economy has lost mobility of labour. Getting a full scholarship requires the child to be enrolled from K-12. Loss of…

Lack of mobility is a key part of the experiment here. It's an economic growth strategy - attract families that value education, get them to set up roots, and the local economy will benefit. If this were to roll out on a national level then it would be much similar to public school, but rather than K-12, it'd be K-BA. Maybe there'd be vouchers, maybe not. The point is that this is an experimental model for economic g…

There's also a kind of inevitability here - that schemes with intended pay-off periods measured in decades are not going to interest politicians who's main (some say "only") job is to be re-elected on 3 or 4 year cycles…

Call me cynical, but if this had been my idea - I would have taken it to potential local wealthy benefactors, and probably would not have bothered pitching it to "the government"…

Re: Anonymous Donor Pays for College of Every Student in Kalamazoo

#68
post #46
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an iteresting and valid point. the counter example to the uk (20 years ago, in medicine and in university) is the us. In the USA both medicine and college are inflated because between the taxes collected and the end user there are [insert conspiracy theory here] actors of questionable probity. Everyone benefits from the massive opaque flow of cash. Politicans get the clout of collecting tax and the support of…

The way I think about it is this: If there is a limited supply of a good that is highly desired by the richest in society, and if price is used as an indicator of quality for that good, then it is the connection between the cost and the consumer that drives prices upwards. For things like speedboats and handcrafted watches and personal spaceships, this is all cool, and I don't think that randomly insanely rich people…

The USA is 6x the size of the UK. Thats the trick. The issue we have: who wants to aggregate all of that power in the hands of [insert conspiraciy theory] actors of dubious propriety. With healthcare thats a problem @20pc GDP (70% increase of size of Gov't spend). With schools, it would need to be thought through, but is likely more manageble. The main conflict with schools is they fight for money, for the research (aka, presitige). Alot of that money comes from the Gov't. And alot of the cost base is fancy non-education-related things.

[edited]

Re: Anonymous Donor Pays for College of Every Student in Kalamazoo

#69
post #64
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has it exactly backwards. Consider this simple (and very simplified) example. The NPV of college is $100k. The marginal student can scrape together $10k to go to college. The marginal cost of a student is less than $10k for the college. How much will the college charge? $10k. What's the benefit to the student? $90k. What if an $89.9k subsidized grant is available? Now the college can charge $99.9k. What's the be…

lets assume the cost of educating a student is going to cost X. The colledge is going to get some percentage of X as profit, no matter what policy the gov't decides. Now, the question is, what party _should_ be covering for the cost X? In the grant scenario, it is society/tax payers who cover the cost of education. In the load scenario, it is the individual being educated that is covering the cost, deferred to the fu…

There are two reasons I disagree with you. Let me start with the one that has some chance of changing your mind.

I believe that spending on education is positive sum. That surely isn't always and everywhere true, but I believe that it's true at the margin, considering the conditions in the U.S. The book that originally convinced me of this was _Children as Pawns: The Politics of Educational Reform_, by Hacsi. It details, along with a lot of other evidence, a longitudinal randomized controlled trial (which is very rare in educational policy) which shows a positive benefit from additional education spending (admittedly, of a very specific type, and in one particular context). There's no way to provide a good summary of the evidence in the book, so let me just say that my opinion is that while the evidence is tenuous, the overall weight of the evidence indicates that the gains from education in tax revenue are greater than the costs. If you like, you can check out the book and decide for yourself. If you agree, then government funding of education seems like an obvious solution. And, of course, the overall gains to society are much greater than the increased tax revenue.

I don't mean to say that our educational system is particularly good. In fact, I think it's very inefficient in many ways. That doesn't preclude the previous conclusion, though.

The second reason is that, in the model above, college administrators capture much of the value added by subsidies. Some gain goes to "good" students, and "bad" students are severely penalized. I believe that's apparent from looking at the practical results, and you can see that in the model by adding student ability and graduation rate to the simple model above. You get an even more extreme result if you add types of degrees (hard vs. easy, with hard degrees resulting in more compensation. Typing out the entire "proof" would be tedious, but I can do it, if you disagree with the result of the model, given the premises. But, in the end, this is a philosophical difference. I don't think that we should be subsidizing college administrators (who are already much better off than average) and really good students (who, on average, will do fine in life anyway) at the expense of bad students (who, IMO, could use some help). I understand that a lot of folks would prefer that people are rewarded purely on talent. Having subsidized loans with a random probabilistic outcome magnifies that, so perhaps you think that solution is fair and just. If that's the case, and you're not convinced that spending on education is a net positive, then there's no hope my line of reasoning will convince you, and we'll have to agree to disagree.

I agree that incentive compatible solutions are important, but I don't think that creating a system that's efficient (in the sense that an econ 101 student would use the word) is the only thing we should consider.

P.S. Your original comment has been downvoted, but it wasn't by me. I disagree with your position, but I don't think you're arguing in bad faith or presenting even presenting a fallacious argument, which are the things I would downvote someone for.

Re: Anonymous Donor Pays for College of Every Student in Kalamazoo

#70
Coming from a European country where we still have free university I think it's a good thing. Sadly things are changing. Now there are limitations, first universities where you have to pay and ever since this was introduced you can follow how the rankings fall and fall.

Note for people from the US: College/University is harder to attend to (graduating from high school is harder) and it's also harder to stay in there (or not take long), so it's still not like everyone can attend it which sucks, because the reason may besides personal problems may be the fact that you are not good at something you won't ever need again anyway. Also on personal experience stuff like math is completely different at college anyway, if you study CS.

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