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US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

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Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#701

Post by breakyerself »

obscurette wrote: post #504

As someone old (60+) who was a teacher in school and thinking a lot about it: - It's mostly a cultural shift in the western world – we don't value personal responsibility any more. When I was in school in seventies, it was my responsibility to study no matter what since grade 1. It didn't matter whether I liked a teacher, topic or whatever. It's not the case any more. - Since nineties there has been a shift in educat…

When you were younger a much larger portion of the student body dropped out to work construction or drive truck, that's less of an option now.

We still rely on rote memorization to a greater degree than Finland which is consistently far more successful in their education.

I think the biggest problem with current education is that too many people like you are looking back with rose colored glasses and resisting the kinds of changes we actually need.

We have a crappy mix of outdated 1970s style education with a bunch of enshittified technology layered on top. Google classroom, we also spend too much time and money on sports. Schools shouldn't even be in the football business. CTE is bad for kids.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#702

Post by monkeyelite »

jmpman wrote: post #693

My son is taking a woodworking class in high school. First week, he came home and I asked him what he was doing in his woodworking class… “Disassembling the library bookcases”. “Why???” “Because they’re getting rid of the library”. Apparently the school board decided to save money by cutting the librarian, and then decided to just move the books out of the school library and into the “nearby” public library. In reali…

I went to a high school with lots of kids that read and nobody ever checked out a book from the school library.

Their interests were specialized and they got their books online or from larger collections not offered at a school.

It’s fine - libraries aren’t sacred. If nobody uses them we don’t need them.

The joke about football is often made but they pay for it, because people use it.

> “Disassembling the library bookcases”

I am skeptical. This is not the subject of wood working. And why would the school entangle students with a task to be performed by professional vendors.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#703

Post by cevn »

jmpman wrote: post #693

My son is taking a woodworking class in high school. First week, he came home and I asked him what he was doing in his woodworking class… “Disassembling the library bookcases”. “Why???” “Because they’re getting rid of the library”. Apparently the school board decided to save money by cutting the librarian, and then decided to just move the books out of the school library and into the “nearby” public library. In reali…

Wow, I spent 90% of my free time as a kid in the school library. Reading this hurts. At least they are protecting them from using their brain

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#704

Post by ninetyninenine »

lagniappe wrote: post #40
ninetyninenine wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Say it with your chest: the comment is implying USA has more immigrants, and the immigrants arriving have lower outcomes on IQ related tasks.

No. Pre 2000s IQ scores from China were largely lower because China didn’t have the infrastructure to support such tests to its full potential.

It’s not immigrants. Immigrants are in general more intelligent than people from the US.

I’m saying the average IQ of people outside of the US has risen and that is a huge part of the declining IQ in the US.

IQ is normalized every year and if the IQ of say China rises significantly every year that would appear as if the US IQ is lowering even if everything in the US actuality stayed the same.

If anything immigrants heighten the IQ of the US. Look at the proportion of Faang engineers. These companies essentially require IQ tests for entry. There’s a reason why these companies are overloaded with immigrants or people with origins from abroad.

A lot of people making stupid assumptions about what I said in this thread. I am in fact really remarking on China. The economic rise to power makes IQ tests originating from China influence the normalization of IQ in a big way.

It’s still offensive to people but I believe on average IQ is generally higher for China than the US. The bell curve is essentially a bit more to the right for China.

Also try not to get offended. These are statistical facts. I feel immigrants got offended but really what I’m saying should be offensive to white people.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#705

Post by HankStallone »

alphazard wrote: post #692
tenarchits wrote: post #198

Most of the comments are focused on the supply of education. But I don't think the supply side is the problem, irrespective of teachers and high schools. There is more and cheaper education available than ever before. Nearly every highschooler has more access to learning that kings and emperors would have fought wars for less than 200 years ago. However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to h…

> However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to have fostered a culture averse to education. There's good reason for this. Not everyone enjoys learning for the sake of it. The pitch for forced education is that it will help you sustain yourself as an adult. If adults are finding their time in forced public education to be regretted, then they pass that information onto the younger generations…

That's all true, but this crowd also leans heavily progressive. Progressives have a great faith in processes and systems. Get the right top-down systems in place, and everything will be good. Naturally that includes the school system, especially government schools.

It might be okay that I was self-taught, because I'm special; but we can't let regular people be doing that sort of thing.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#706

Post by etempleton »

djeastm wrote: post #697
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I completely agree. But it isn’t the parents problem, it’s the teachers, and the teacher is uniquely un-equipped and disempowered to deal with it. They have a room full of kids to attend to and one having a meltdown because they’ve lost their dopamine dispenser and have no emotional regulation capability ruins that entire class.

Fair enough, I misunderstood your point. It's so strange to me that teachers are having to deal with any of these behavioral issues. I seem to recall it being the domain of Assistant Principals and what we called "resource officers". Any disruption more than a childish comment meant a trip to the principals office escorted by an officer. That was it. Teaching could continue.

The issue is you can no longer physically remove a child. So getting them there is the problem if they are not going willingly and if they are a big enough problem they need to be removed it probably means they aren’t doing anything willingly.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#707

Post by monkeyelite »

etempleton wrote: post #654
tenarchits wrote: post #198

Most of the comments are focused on the supply of education. But I don't think the supply side is the problem, irrespective of teachers and high schools. There is more and cheaper education available than ever before. Nearly every highschooler has more access to learning that kings and emperors would have fought wars for less than 200 years ago. However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to h…

In the US there are a few obvious things, but everyone acts as if we are powerless to solve them: 1. Cell phones in classrooms. I don’t know how or why they were ever allowed. They should have to be in a backpack or in a locker and off during class. 2. Not removing students with bad behavior from classrooms and schools. The current thinking on how to handle a student who is seriously misbehaving and potentially viole…

> In the US there are a few obvious things, but everyone acts as if we are powerless to solve them

Yes but they aren’t the things you said:

1. Schools are filled with disruptive kids who use up time and resources and are not removed. 2. Teachers have no enforcement authority so they cannot do any of what you said, including removing phones. 3. Teachers and administrators are generally not smart or capable and continue to spend resources on everything except time spent reading, writing, and doing math. 4. Teachers are trapped in a web of legal red tape, bad incentives, and horrible metrics. 5. The US is segregated by by class and education.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#708

Post by scythe »

whoiskevin wrote: post #684
etempleton wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US there are a few obvious things, but everyone acts as if we are powerless to solve them: 1. Cell phones in classrooms. I don’t know how or why they were ever allowed. They should have to be in a backpack or in a locker and off during class. 2. Not removing students with bad behavior from classrooms and schools. The current thinking on how to handle a student who is seriously misbehaving and potentially viole…

[flagged]

It's not that simple:

https://archive.ph/wyFT0

>This year the federal government reimbursed most schools between 77 cents and $4.58 per lunch meal

>[...]

>“You’re wasting white milk and money,” wrote Ben, who identified himself as a fourth grader. “Another reason you should bring back chocolate milk is because students are super MAD.”

Anyone who has ever bought a lunch knows that you can't get something that's healthy and tastes decent for $4.58. Then there's another wrench thrown in the system by insisting on using fresh ingredients like Gordon Ramsey is watching, which forces deeper cuts on everything else. Some public health officials seem to be chasing a mirage of the artisan school chef who forages for edible clover on the school grounds. The result is that students are handed the cheapest apple money can buy and most of them throw it away.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#709

Post by etempleton »

dbish wrote: post #674
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Good luck. Have you ever tried to take an iPad kid's iPad? Be ready for the fight of your fucking life. 2 and 5 are handily down to No Child Left Behind which is frankly some of the worst legislation ever devised for education. 3 and 4: And these factors are only getting worse as worse and worse kids enter the school systems. Nobody wants to deal with them, including their parents. Bonus: It's not hard, but we won…

If you can't take a kid's iPad away the parents have made major mistakes and the only option is for the school to directly address this addiction head on.

I see it with a lot of parents that use iPads and other devices to pacify their kids. Yes, it is easy, but when they are so addicted to it that they can’t put it down it is a problem.
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