Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone" • Hacker News Board

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#211

Post by delta_p_delta_x » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:37 PM UTC

gspencley wrote: post #115

silvestrov wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car oriented people seriously underestimate how many people that can be transported in a subway train and how much highway space it would take to transport the same number of people in cars. One subway line can transport more people than even the widest existing highway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_dif... (edit: spelling)

From an efficiency point of view public transportation makes a lot of sense. From a quality of life point of view, I have never been comfortable being crammed into a sardine can with that many other people. I've done it. I've never enjoyed it. I do look forward to travelling to the Netherlands one day and I will enthusiastically use public transit there just as a personal experiment to see if my experience differs en…

> just don't take away my means of being able to achieve a little bit of solitude.

Have you tried taking a walk in a forest, a desert, or on an ice sheet? Plenty of solitude to go around...

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#212

Post by Workaccount2 » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:37 PM UTC

stephen_g wrote: post #4

I think the thing that really struck a chord with me about car-centric development, as someone who lives in a city with fairly poor public transport (by certain standards, it would actually be quite good if it were in the US) and where driving is the norm for getting around - Prioritising cars actually makes things worse for drivers. We spend many tens of billions of dollars a year on roads in my state and traffic in…

Nobody likes to hear this, including me,

But a car with no traffic is the overall best form of transportation.

Anything that reduces traffic, just makes driving a car more palatable.

So we are stuck forever at an equilibrium of tolerable traffic. More people taking the bus, train, bikes, and walking? Great! I'll zip down the highway and get a parking spot right in front.

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#213

Post by vixen99 » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:37 PM UTC

bythreads wrote: post #47

IFC_LLC wrote: post #8

It's all fine and dandy until you realize that economy pays a big buck for faster and more comfortable ways of transporting a body. (And it's been this way since time memorial). You either transport your body fast, or you are missing out. And the greatest thing to miss out is an opportunity. While programmers can live in one room for years and just use Zoom for everything, others can't. Sorry to say, but most of my E…

In any city the shortest distance in total time spent is by bike. Even if it is widely dangerous to do so (most american cities i've ever visited) You can hem and haw - but its pretty bang on When you then add finding parking at the ends of your trip to it it is crazyly more efficient timewise. Now even copenhagen denmark has rain causing many more to take a car or public transport (that works). But it is very clear…

Agreed. What's the way forward though? https://www.romania-insider.com/insurance-union-one-cyclist-...

'In Romania, one cyclist dies every two days'

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#214

Post by stephen_g » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:37 PM UTC

discomrobertul8 wrote: post #142

stephen_g wrote: post #4

I think the thing that really struck a chord with me about car-centric development, as someone who lives in a city with fairly poor public transport (by certain standards, it would actually be quite good if it were in the US) and where driving is the norm for getting around - Prioritising cars actually makes things worse for drivers. We spend many tens of billions of dollars a year on roads in my state and traffic in…

There's also the "south east Qld option" (which I'm certain is the region you're describing in your comment) where the government is so roadbrained that all public transport solutions inevitably end up as some form of bus, further adding to congestion and making it worse for everyone, drivers, public transport users and active transport users.

You guessed correctly :)

The other problem is that city councils historically have run busses, whereas the State Government runs the rail, so a lot of our bus network competes with the rail instead of working together as an integrated network. At least the ticketing is integrated, but the network still has never felt like it’s designed to work together as an integrated transit network.

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#215

Post by christina97 » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:37 PM UTC

gspencley wrote: post #115

silvestrov wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car oriented people seriously underestimate how many people that can be transported in a subway train and how much highway space it would take to transport the same number of people in cars. One subway line can transport more people than even the widest existing highway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_dif... (edit: spelling)

From an efficiency point of view public transportation makes a lot of sense. From a quality of life point of view, I have never been comfortable being crammed into a sardine can with that many other people. I've done it. I've never enjoyed it. I do look forward to travelling to the Netherlands one day and I will enthusiastically use public transit there just as a personal experiment to see if my experience differs en…

I don’t enjoy the 15 minutes I spend packed in the NY subway when I have to take it during rush hour, but I do enjoy hopping on the subway off-peak when the cars are half empty and I get a seat and open my subway book.

Similarly I hated being stuck in 30 minutes of bumper-to-bumper traffic during my old commute in a past life. But I do really enjoy driving on new routes when the road is half empty.

My two observations are that bumper-to-bumper traffic feels much more stressful to me (a lot more honking, people trying to cut into faster lanes, etc) than the subway (crammed and sometimes there’s a homeless person with bad BO), and that I spend much less time on the rush hour subway than in traffic jams in the past (even during rush hour, the subways are not that packed until you get into Manhattan).

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#216

Post by bluGill » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:37 PM UTC

thelastgallon wrote: post #127

yostrovs wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Train oriented people always forget that trains don't transport people from the origin to the destination. You still need to get to and from a train station. With all your groceries, gear, children's things, etc. Oh and you might be odor sensitive, but there's a lady next to you on the train that covered herself in perfume.

Life is full of impossible choices. Do I worry about the perfume of a lady on the train or worry about death/disability from a drunk driver on the road. Car deaths per year in the US are about 40 - 45K; injuries, some of them permanent are most likely 20 - 30x. Deaths and disability from perfume on a lady on the train are most likely far higher. I wish schools teach something, whats that called, math? probability? to…

> Do I worry about the perfume of a lady on the train or

As someone who will have a runny nose all day if I sit next to that lady, yes I do worry about her perfume more than I worry about the drunk driver. While the drunk driver is a worse situation if the odds hit me, the odds the perfumed lady is too close to me is much higher.

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#217

Post by account42 » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:37 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #96

npteljes wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there's a lady next to you on the train that covered herself in perfume. Or urine. Or they want to beat you up, or worse. I can't imagine good public transport without the "good public".

Come to Europe, especially northern Europe. The wealthy population also take public transport, it's sort of expected that its for everyone... this seems to alter the behaviour of people in a positive way. Maybe through enhanced enforcement by police? or perhaps social conditioning through higher expectations? idk. US Public transport is not a model of what public transport is like; it's only an example of failed infr…

The same points also apply to EU public transport. Maybe your area is better but where I live it's definitely mostly the poorer and less domesticated that you find in public transport.

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#218

Post by TimorousBestie » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:37 PM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #162

silvestrov wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car oriented people seriously underestimate how many people that can be transported in a subway train and how much highway space it would take to transport the same number of people in cars. One subway line can transport more people than even the widest existing highway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_dif... (edit: spelling)

People don’t pick their mode of transportation based on space efficiency. They pick their mode of transportation based on their needs and priorities. Taking the subway works when there’s a stop near your home, a stop near your destination, and you have all of the time necessary to wait for it. If these conditions aren’t met then you need additional transport to and from one or both ends of the subway journey. There’s…

> They pick their mode of transportation based on their needs and priorities.

Transit isn’t a free market. The federal, state and local governments in the US heavily, heavily subsidize car transit to the exclusion of every other alternative. If consumers paid the fully-burdened cost, cars would be much less popular.

> If these conditions aren’t met then you need additional transport to and from one or both ends of the subway journey.

They’re called buses, street cars, ride-shares, bicycles, etc. This has been a solved problem for about a century.

> There are cities where I’m just not going to take my kids on the subway if I can avoid it.

Interested to see any statistics showing which subway system is less safe than a car in the same area per passenger per mile traveled.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-public-transit...

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#219

Post by akudha » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:38 PM UTC

stephen_g wrote: post #4

I think the thing that really struck a chord with me about car-centric development, as someone who lives in a city with fairly poor public transport (by certain standards, it would actually be quite good if it were in the US) and where driving is the norm for getting around - Prioritising cars actually makes things worse for drivers. We spend many tens of billions of dollars a year on roads in my state and traffic in…

There is always some private company benefiting when a town/city rejects public transport. I remember reading an article about a town that rejected public transport, there was intense door-to-door lobbying by some Koch brothers funded group. It was a small town, I suppose they were just testing their lobbying efforts before deploying the same in large cities.

All this to say, if the public is sufficiently informed, they are not going to reject public transport. We've been brainwashed that car centric transport is the best.

Then there is Japan, they kept a station open just for one girl, so she can get to school - https://www.ndtv.com/feature/kyu-shirataki-station-japanese-...

Re: Pontevedra, Spain declares its entire urban area a "reduced traffic zone"

#220

Post by potato3732842 » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:38 PM UTC

knorker wrote: post #165

gspencley wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From an efficiency point of view public transportation makes a lot of sense. From a quality of life point of view, I have never been comfortable being crammed into a sardine can with that many other people. I've done it. I've never enjoyed it. I do look forward to travelling to the Netherlands one day and I will enthusiastically use public transit there just as a personal experiment to see if my experience differs en…

> Even if it takes me 4x as long to get to my destination, driving is still better than this. I don't believe this as a real rule. 10min vs 40min, maybe. 1h commute vs 4h commute? I don't believe that you would prefer spending 8h per day in a car. > The parent poster made an interesting point that resonates a lot with me. Better public transportation will get people off the roads which will make quality of life bette…

>I just wish that driving wasn't the most taxpayer subsidized personal choice in history

Get the government out of the road planning/building business and let the chips fall as they may.

There are two big problems with this though.

First is demographics. Of all the people who currently say they want this "enough to be a problem" will immediately do an about face the first time they catch wind of a news story where some bigCo buys the land and puts a toll road through somewhere they don't want it or some inner-ring suburb of the kind they sympathize with the residents of losing out in gets absolutely screwed by some regional infrastructure conglomeration routes around them for not playing ball.

Second is entrenched interests. Government road management is mostly a result of coincidence. Society was building paved roads for cars at the same time that the modern high touch administrative state was on the up and up so of course the state claimed that as one of the things it administered. Had the 20th century administrative state come 50yr later modern roads may very well have ben built out privately like railroads were. It would be a huge fight to get the government's dick out of it because of all the economic and political interests that are inter-twined with the status quo.