US High school students' scores fall in reading and math • Hacker News Board

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#661

Post by dbish » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:16 PM UTC

faangguyindia wrote: post #352

tenarchits wrote: post #198

Most of the comments are focused on the supply of education. But I don't think the supply side is the problem, irrespective of teachers and high schools. There is more and cheaper education available than ever before. Nearly every highschooler has more access to learning that kings and emperors would have fought wars for less than 200 years ago. However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to h…

not surprised you lose what you don't use, does modern world even require people using those reading and math skills anymore?

yes, if you're in any job that interacts with a lot of people and is at least a little technical. writing for communication and math proficiency are both extremely important for being effective.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#662

Post by Mallowram » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:18 PM UTC

tenarchits wrote: post #198

Most of the comments are focused on the supply of education. But I don't think the supply side is the problem, irrespective of teachers and high schools. There is more and cheaper education available than ever before. Nearly every highschooler has more access to learning that kings and emperors would have fought wars for less than 200 years ago. However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to h…

[dead]

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#663

Post by pcurve » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:18 PM UTC

jampekka wrote: post #508

obscurette wrote: post #504

As someone old (60+) who was a teacher in school and thinking a lot about it: - It's mostly a cultural shift in the western world – we don't value personal responsibility any more. When I was in school in seventies, it was my responsibility to study no matter what since grade 1. It didn't matter whether I liked a teacher, topic or whatever. It's not the case any more. - Since nineties there has been a shift in educat…

Personal responsibility was on the rise until 2013, after which it started to decline?

It became politicized because politicians latched onto it as a way to cutback entitlement spending which is unfortunate.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#664

Post by tomrod » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:19 PM UTC

graemep wrote: post #618

kingkawn wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Saying that skin colour is not important is racist? Or are you objecting to the idea that culture matters? Or are you saying that how people identify, and how society classifies them has no impact? Really confused by what you are claiming is racist.

I find this sort of claim really common (the commenter you responded to).

Skin color is unfortunately correlated to socioeconomic outcomes in the United States. Once poverty is controlled for, at least in my analysis, most of this difference is ameliorated (though mild correlation persists).

Most people in this vein, at least in my experience, will describe after a long conversation that they think there can only be two sources of correlation - genetic ("nature", which I disagree is a primary cause of socioeconomic outcomes) and a weird subset of nurture that fails to take into account intergenerational impact (history), instead focusing solely on state (assertion of Markovian process to life).

In my view, nuture breaks out into those components -- history defines the resources you have access to in your broader community, and state defines your immediate challenges. It's hard to get resources to change your life if you have a bad state, but it is possible. Americans love an underdog story and the bad-state good-history fits it well. Bad-history leads to a lot of additional issues -- systemic type issues. Americans have seen this in both hostile urban planning to a full community and to hostile resource reallocation to rural areas (towns shutting down with no way to recover) in favor of suburbia. From my studies, I think Strongtown lands the description of the issues (Youtube channel).

I'm not epistemically arrogant enough to assume I am 100% right here -- much of this is from 20 years of research experience but there is always more to understand at a population level and how that relates to the individual level.

I am epistemically arrogant enough to require people to hold to their ideals -- if someone wants to ensure equality of opportunity, that has to both be for the state (Little Jimmy and Jane come from a poor family) as well as history (and none of Little Jane's community has been to college and nor do they understand the college application or financial assistance process; further, most are unbanked and most of the male population can't get gainful employment due prison sentences connected to overpolicing and/or desperation behaviors [a catch-22 for communities wanting to build a brighter future while also exercising punitive justice]).

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#665

Post by tomrod » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:20 PM UTC

notmyjob wrote: post #655

tomrod wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Were this an academic symposium I would agree. But this is the internet where folks who know how to establish causality and understand research methods and proper citing are uncommon. Fortunately, I do appreciate the author's thought and contribtions to observation data, and, tongue in cheek, as a utility monster my appreciation more than negates your lack of appreciation.

There is nothing hn doesn’t understand. There are just a lot of juniors, which is important.

Was your comment meant for me or someone else? I don't follow.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#666

Post by graemep » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:20 PM UTC

nobody9999 wrote: post #634

graemep wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yes, skin color itself is irrelevant, it is simply a convenient identifier for underlying significant biological differences No, its a terrible identifier. If you group people by genetic similarity (which is of dubious usefulness) you essentially end up with three different black African races, one Australian, Pacific and Native American, and one everyone else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_cluste…

>If you group people by genetic similarity (which is of dubious usefulness) you essentially end up with three different black African races, one Australian, Pacific and Native American, and one everyone else. There's only one sentient primate race: Homo Sapiens. There absolutely are genetic differences between groups that were geographically isolated from each other (as you note). However, when genetic variation is c…

> Firstly, there's only one sentient primate race: Homo Sapiens.

Nope, species, not race - or arguable sub-species.

As your link says race is a social construct, so it is whatever society says it means. It means different things in different societies. This is something I experience personally so I am very aware of it: https://pietersz.co.uk/2023/08/racism-culture-different

> However, when genetic variation is compared both between and within those groups, we see more variation within those once isolated groups than we do between those groups

Which is why genetic similarity does not work well as a way defining race, and why the concept of race has no biological basis. This is covered by the wikipedia link in my previous comment too.

> What's more, even within such groups genetic variation is only around 0.5-1.5%.

Yes, but that is just normal for a species. We share a lot of DNA (98%?) with chimpanzees and something like 70% with fish! its not really meaningful. However, its not the main argument, because the variation within vs (lack of) between groups is really the killer argument.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#667

Post by raincole » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:21 PM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #408

tenarchits wrote: post #198

Most of the comments are focused on the supply of education. But I don't think the supply side is the problem, irrespective of teachers and high schools. There is more and cheaper education available than ever before. Nearly every highschooler has more access to learning that kings and emperors would have fought wars for less than 200 years ago. However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to h…

> However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to have fostered a culture averse to education. I always find it interesting that the anti-schooling mentality is so prevalent here on HN, too. It’s most obvious in threads about cheating, where a popular topic of discussion is to defend cheating as a rational reaction because school doesn’t matter, a degree is “just a piece of paper”, and you’ll l…

While HN users have various backgrounds, I suppose programmers make up quite a large proportion of this community.

Programmers are generally more anti-schooling, at least anti-college for a good reason. It's one of the high-paying jobs where a degree is optional in modern days. It's also one of the few fields where the best resources are not gatekept.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#668

Post by atwrk » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:22 PM UTC

etempleton wrote: post #654

tenarchits wrote: post #198

Most of the comments are focused on the supply of education. But I don't think the supply side is the problem, irrespective of teachers and high schools. There is more and cheaper education available than ever before. Nearly every highschooler has more access to learning that kings and emperors would have fought wars for less than 200 years ago. However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to h…

In the US there are a few obvious things, but everyone acts as if we are powerless to solve them: 1. Cell phones in classrooms. I don’t know how or why they were ever allowed. They should have to be in a backpack or in a locker and off during class. 2. Not removing students with bad behavior from classrooms and schools. The current thinking on how to handle a student who is seriously misbehaving and potentially viole…

Re point 2: In Germany, among other countries, you have social education workers (a college-educated job) in school for these situations. Such behavior has underlying causes, e.g. problems at home (fresh divorce, drugs, poverty-related stress) recent trauma (accidents, death of a loved one, abuse), mental illness (AHDS etc.). Treat the cause and the behavior changes.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#669

Post by Dilettante_ » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:23 PM UTC

MisterSandman wrote: post #627

Dilettante_ wrote: post #613

My completely unfounded theory about why education is declining: Teachers don't get to beat kids anymore. (I'm not saying they ought to). If it's one mentally completely exhausted adult doing nothing but "use their words" against 25 kids/teenagers with nothing but energy, and a feeling that the system, which the teacher is the agent of, is their enemy, the power balance flips radically. Forcing kids to go to school o…

This is not just an unfounded theory but a completely insane theory. Many (all?) of the countries ahead of the US in test scores also don’t “beat their kids” because that is absolutely fucking insane. It’s such an American thing, to blame something on a lack of violence.

I'm not referring to the gap between the countries, I was focused on the historic development of the one population.

The old paradigm produced results(arguably?), but was "gutted". By this train of reasoning, this old, and still "current" teaching paradigm simply does not work without violent coercion is the point I was really trying to drive.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#670

Post by ToucanLoucan » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 1:23 PM UTC

etempleton wrote: post #654

tenarchits wrote: post #198

Most of the comments are focused on the supply of education. But I don't think the supply side is the problem, irrespective of teachers and high schools. There is more and cheaper education available than ever before. Nearly every highschooler has more access to learning that kings and emperors would have fought wars for less than 200 years ago. However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to h…

In the US there are a few obvious things, but everyone acts as if we are powerless to solve them: 1. Cell phones in classrooms. I don’t know how or why they were ever allowed. They should have to be in a backpack or in a locker and off during class. 2. Not removing students with bad behavior from classrooms and schools. The current thinking on how to handle a student who is seriously misbehaving and potentially viole…

1. Good luck. Have you ever tried to take an iPad kid's iPad? Be ready for the fight of your fucking life.

2 and 5 are handily down to No Child Left Behind which is frankly some of the worst legislation ever devised for education.

3 and 4: And these factors are only getting worse as worse and worse kids enter the school systems. Nobody wants to deal with them, including their parents.

Bonus: It's not hard, but we won't allocate the money. School lunch lady is a job considered a punch line because for some reason our culture thinks it's easy to serve food to several hundred people in 45 minutes when the people in question aren't old enough to buy cigarettes, but good fucking luck getting money and people allocated to actually do that.