US High school students' scores fall in reading and math • Hacker News Board

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#451

Post by sapphicsnail » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 5:20 AM UTC

weitendorf wrote: post #374

rayiner wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that “culture” explanation is that white kids in America do fine in international educational comparisons. In the 2018 PISA assessment, 15 year old white american students were near the top in reading (behind only Singapore and some Chinese SEZs) and in the top echelon in science (comparable to Japan). Their weakest performance was math, where they’re around the middle, behind the top asian countries…

The racial achievement gap is probably one of the most significant problems educators in the US think about. I think one of the biggest obstacles to improving it (not causing the problem, but making solutions difficult or ineffective) is that low-performing urban school districts tend to correlate strongly with strong teachers' unions and big, mismanaged school administrations where things are too bureaucratic and in…

I wouldn't trust any data about charter schools that came from the Hoover Institute. Plenty of red states with weak labor laws have awful educational systems.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#452

Post by consp » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 5:21 AM UTC

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #431

paulddraper wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to have fostered a culture averse to education. !! The rate of college graduates has increased nearby 50% over that timeframe. A rather unexpected result for a cultural aversion to education.

If you read his whole comment it was about how education is "just a piece of paper you need to get a job". That mentality could totally lead to worse proficiency and more degrees awarded.

If you punish teachers solely on passing percentage you get the same result. It might be the teacher is bad but if you teach a difficult course it might be the students.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#453

Post by zkmon » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 5:23 AM UTC

I don't see what's new here. This trend is not unexpected with our goals as a society. The overall goals are in the other direction. We don't want to work hard or think hard. That's precisely what is driving tech, business and lifestyle here. We have outsourced all of our hard work and hard thinking to machines and cheaper workforce elsewhere. For some reason, it seems to work fine. With all the dumbness and weakness, we still seem to be doing well as a country. So, why the concern?

Oh, you say that, we are losing some human abilities. Well, Prosperity and easy food removes the need for abilities or hunting. It is all cyclic. Each cycle is a few generations long.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#454

Post by cyberax » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 5:23 AM UTC

KPGv2 wrote: post #376

weitendorf wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The racial achievement gap is probably one of the most significant problems educators in the US think about. I think one of the biggest obstacles to improving it (not causing the problem, but making solutions difficult or ineffective) is that low-performing urban school districts tend to correlate strongly with strong teachers' unions and big, mismanaged school administrations where things are too bureaucratic and in…

[flagged]

OK, here's a question. Should every sportball team in the US be prohibited from being selective? Everyone, regardless of their capability, should be able to play on the same field. Including paraplegics because it's not their fault.

It's a lofty ideal, don't you think?

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#455

Post by consp » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 5:23 AM UTC

faangguyindia wrote: post #352

tenarchits wrote: post #198

Most of the comments are focused on the supply of education. But I don't think the supply side is the problem, irrespective of teachers and high schools. There is more and cheaper education available than ever before. Nearly every highschooler has more access to learning that kings and emperors would have fought wars for less than 200 years ago. However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to h…

not surprised you lose what you don't use, does modern world even require people using those reading and math skills anymore?

Looking at the amount of contracts I have to read to even start software it should. Looking at how many people buy lottery tickets I guess the same for math.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#456

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 5:24 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #329

tenarchits wrote: post #198

Most of the comments are focused on the supply of education. But I don't think the supply side is the problem, irrespective of teachers and high schools. There is more and cheaper education available than ever before. Nearly every highschooler has more access to learning that kings and emperors would have fought wars for less than 200 years ago. However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to h…

The problem with that “culture” explanation is that white kids in America do fine in international educational comparisons. In the 2018 PISA assessment, 15 year old white american students were near the top in reading (behind only Singapore and some Chinese SEZs) and in the top echelon in science (comparable to Japan). Their weakest performance was math, where they’re around the middle, behind the top asian countries…

[deleted]

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#457

Post by 1123581321 » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 5:24 AM UTC

lazyasciiart wrote: post #444

nradov wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop spreading misinformation. Public charter schools aren't allowed to kick out underperforming students.

Please don’t spread misinformation. Charter school law varies by state and you should not make blanket statements about what they are allowed to do.

They appear to be essentially correct. There is little variance by state in how they accept students from the public. Were you thinking of a particular state? Here's information on the admission laws for each state from Wested. https://wested2024.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/wp-content/upl...

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#458

Post by cyberax » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 5:25 AM UTC

cwillu wrote: post #388

weitendorf wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't consider myself right wing, but I guess in this case I wouldn't care even if it were nominally right-wing, because it's more important to give students good educations than it is to perpetuate institutions (eg giant school systems with awful performance) that might ideologically better align with my beliefs but are clearly not working. Also, while I don't think students should be pushed out of charter schools…

The implication seems to be that charter schools are superior, but does that jive with other countries' successes? A commonly given alternative explanation is that the public options in the US are deliberately sabotaged via budget restrictions, and then the resulting poor performance is used to justify further cuts—a similar dynamic has been fairly recently executed in Alberta with public health care.

Budgets are NOT a problem. Magnet schools in the US get the same or _less_ funding per capita than the average for the area.

E.g. Lowell Heights in SF gets less than the average funding, and Stuyvesant in NYC gets the average amount.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#459

Post by somenameforme » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 5:26 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #442

zdragnar wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Skin color isn't it, actually. I knew (second hand) a teacher in a rural area of a low population state. All white kids, she'd have kindergartners cussing her out. Very little hope for any academic future for the other grades as things didn't get better with the older kids. I knew a white kid who lived in a trailer park whose mom was upset he was getting tutoring after school for his dyslexia because she told him he'…

Rural low population states actually have pretty good test scores: https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/profiles/stateprofile?sfj=...

That's an understatement. Sort that by at or above basic and the top 5 states in the US are: North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Utah, Wisconsin.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#460

Post by adrr » Wed, Sep 10, 2025, 5:29 AM UTC

runjake wrote: post #101

- The Pandemic really set that generation of kids back, particularly kids who were in elementary during that time. - Public school is essentially daycare. They try to integrate special education students more into the regular classrooms, but the teachers end up spending disproportionate time dealing with them and their behavioral issues, which hurts learning for regular students. - I don't have strong, set in stone o…

My oldest has done both common core math(kinder and 1st grade) and Singapore math(2nd through 5th). Both emphasize understanding over procedure and repetition. I do think in the long run it's more valuable since she has an understanding of concepts instead of just having things memorized. She never really her learned her multiplication tables as it was never required, her homework is real world word problems that challenge even me. I think it's much more valuable than rote memorization that traditional math education focused on. It's just a lot of work from both the teacher and the student. That's the challenge teaching these types of math educations over traditional math.