Live data from Hacker News

US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

apnews.com

211–220 of 1001 posts

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#211
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is because Asian governments want their populations to more educated and American governments want their populations to be less educated. For the former I'd guess its because they have very strong control on people's behaviors so they just want them more capable to innovate, grow economy, etc. For the latter I'd guess its because they fear a more educated population will be harder to manipulate and hence…

> I think this is because Asian governments want their populations to more educated and American governments want their populations to be less educated. On the American side it’s not that they want people to be less educated. It’s the adversarial system of education being run by people whose interests are not aligned with students excelling. Teacher’s unions, which predominantly exist in the public school system, are…

> Teacher’s unions, which predominantly exist in the public school system, are not in the business of educating children

I'm always surprised and disappointed to see such lazy thinking on HN. If teachers' unions were responsible for poor educational outcomes, you would see an inverse relationship between strong teachers' unions and K-12 rankings.

But New Jersey and Massachusetts consistently rank in the top 2 K-12 rankings in the US. And they have ~100% union density among K-12 public school teachers!

Let's test the rest of your little theory. If you believe that pesky teachers' unions are responsible for poor outcomes, then surely states with less teacher's union density and union power will be the epitome of strong K-12 outcomes.

But who ranks at the bottom? New Mexico at #50, Alaska at #49, Oklahoma at #48...

You might, at this point, sensibly say that's due to residents having less money and other disadvantages. But at that point you have to admit that teachers' unions have no correlation to K-12 outcomes.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#212

Most of the comments are focused on the supply of education. But I don't think the supply side is the problem, irrespective of teachers and high schools. There is more and cheaper education available than ever before. Nearly every highschooler has more access to learning that kings and emperors would have fought wars for less than 200 years ago. However,the United States, particularly in the last 50 years, seems to h…

"Culture" is downstream of incentives.

And constraints. To call this a cultural issue is insane. I have firsthand seen the structural problems with institutional education. My scholastic experience was hell and anti-intellectual from day one, and it was all institutional issues.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The majority of the public school system has devolved into day-care, not education. I resisted that narrative for years, thinking it was just a media-hyped scare tactic to get clicks. However, my niece started high school a few weeks ago (in mid-August, which is weird to me); her experience blew my mind. Her new high school is considered one of the better public high schools in the area. When I asked her how it was…

>Things like no bullying, inclusiveness, fire safety, bring your own water bottle, how to pray When great controversy surrounds the curriculum, the safest thing to teach is nothing at all.

>When great controversy surrounds the curriculum, the safest way to keep the gravy train rolling to teach is nothing at all.

I fixed your verbiage to be more descriptive. They are teaching nothing specifically because they don't want to kill the golden goose. If there wasn't so much money at stake we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#214

The majority of the public school system has devolved into day-care, not education. Most parents just watch TV, stare at their phones and don't want to be bothered by anything that requires effort. A major societal shift needs to happen for this to be reversed. It's many factors... the parents, the food system, various inequalities, social media, technology, healthcare... the solution is multi-pronged. But if I had t…

Maybe. I've definitely seen that anecdotally in some cases. But the school system is also problematic for the families that do value education and the kids that could excel in the classroom.

Our district has eliminated programs for the kids at the top end in the name of equity. They've also eliminated separate spaces for kids with learning and behavioral issues for the same reason. So everyone is in the same classroom and most of the teacher's time is spent on a handful of kids causing trouble and the rest of the class learns nothing.

We can't afford private school, so we're doing a bunch of extra lessons at home to keep them on pace, engaged, and challenged. But really, there are only so many hours in the day and I want them to be outside playing too!

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#216

When I think of all my teachers I had throughout K-12 public school, not one of them stands out as having meaningfully impacted my life. In fact I would argue many of them were a net negative to my learning achievements (or lack thereof). So yeah, defund public schools as much as possible. That will get my vote.

That's unfortunate, I had at least 6 or 7 I could point to from that time that were outstanding teachers who instilled passion into their subject.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#217
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to blame the teachers unions, but if their goal was to only raise their own salaries and benefits, they are doing a very poor job at it. Teachers do not get paid well. They also tend to get paid more at the elite private schools. So if you want to compare, then you would be advocating for public schools to match private school salaries. While not always the case, "measuring progress" makes things worse beca…

> It's easy to blame the teachers unions, but if their goal was to only raise their own salaries and benefits, they are doing a very poor job at it. They do a pretty good job at it when you factor in long term pensions and health care. > Teachers do not get paid well. Teachers get paid too much. They create artificial barriers like requiring multiple years of certifications to purposefully limit the pool of competiti…

> They do a pretty good job at it when you factor in long term pensions and health care.

They only get good pensions and health care because school districts refuse to give them better salaries instead. And good health care (really, health insurance) is crucial because health care costs can obviously bankrupt you in America.

> They create artificial barriers like requiring multiple years of certifications to purposefully limit the pool of competition

How is requiring the equivalent of a master's degree an "artificial barrier"? Surely, new teachers should have some experience and theoretical background before standing in front of 30-100+ students and being responsible for their education?

Florida passed a law making it possible for veterans to teach without even having a bachelor's degree. Does that sound like a good idea to you? Would requiring even a bachelor's degree be an "artificial barrier" in your opinion?

https://www.fldoe.org/teaching/certification/military/

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Among other things an entire day on active shooter drills? Is it possible your niece was joking?

Unfortunately, no. My niece's mom, my sister, called her school to ask wtf was going on. They gave her a lame, lawyer-approved response about their responsibility to protect children and the drills are mandated by the state, blah blah blah. So yeah, my niece said they practice how to respond (call 911, not your parents?), what to do if the teacher is shot (they don't use the word "shot", though), and they talked abou…

>call 911, not your parents?

What else do you expect government run schools to teach if not "engage the government at any/every opportunity"?

Looking back on my own education what a disservice some of those behavior patterns (not specifically that one) they tried to teach us would be in adult life.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Culture" is downstream of incentives.

And constraints. To call this a cultural issue is insane. I have firsthand seen the structural problems with institutional education. My scholastic experience was hell and anti-intellectual from day one, and it was all institutional issues.

And the institutions reflect culture.

The fact that these institutions can exist at the low-performing state they do is a direct reflection of the culture of the people who run them, send their kids to them, pay taxes to support them, etc.

The schools can only do what they do to the degree that people aren't willing to put up with it.

Re: US High school students' scores fall in reading and math

#220

When I think of all my teachers I had throughout K-12 public school, not one of them stands out as having meaningfully impacted my life. In fact I would argue many of them were a net negative to my learning achievements (or lack thereof). So yeah, defund public schools as much as possible. That will get my vote.

"America is bad and should be destroyed without regard to the people living there" The worst leftists (handshake) the worst right wingers

[dead]
Post reply on HN