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Nootropics – The Facts About “Smart Drugs”

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Re: Nootropics – The Facts About “Smart Drugs”

#51

Post by danneu »

stephengillie wrote: post #4

Unlike in athletics, academics isn’t necessarily a zero sum game. While in a race there is necessarily a winner and a loser, nobody in academics is held back if another student is better able to retain their information. No, but the doped student's advantage could cause her to be selected over another (undoped) student in college entrance exams, program entrance exams, and other educational competitions. Does this me…

Whenever the topic of nootropics comes up, especially when comments come critique, people seem to forget about the second most traded commodity in the world.

The majority of people reading these very words are doped up on stimulants, probably from the ubiquitous stimulant machine down the hall.

Re: Nootropics – The Facts About “Smart Drugs”

#53

Post by dedward »

acuozzo wrote: post #44
elemeno wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything I've read about Modafinil suggests that it's not addictive - for everything being Wikipedia along with some other sites which I don't recall off the top of my head (it was about six months ago when I did any research about it). It's a lovely little thing though, very nice clean focused sensation coupled with a lack of tiredness.

> Everything I've read about Modafinil suggests that it's not addictive - for everything being Wikipedia along with some other sites which I don't recall off the top of my head (it was about six months ago when I did any research about it). It's probably not addictive, but what if you become addicted to the lifestyle it makes possible?

Well, there's a difference between things you don't want to give up, and things you can't give up because you'll get sick as a dog, and/or require hospitalization and maybe die.

Re: Nootropics – The Facts About “Smart Drugs”

#54

Post by illuminate »

whalesalad wrote: post #23
stephengillie wrote: post #4

Unlike in athletics, academics isn’t necessarily a zero sum game. While in a race there is necessarily a winner and a loser, nobody in academics is held back if another student is better able to retain their information. No, but the doped student's advantage could cause her to be selected over another (undoped) student in college entrance exams, program entrance exams, and other educational competitions. Does this me…

Life is a competition. May the best man win. Remember Darwin? The strongest will survive. I'm not going to proactively try and injure someone else or hold someone else back, but you can bet i'll do whatever I possibly can get get the leg up. It's a dog eat dog world. High school prepares you for college, and college ultimately, cough somewhat sarcastic , prepares you for the real world. People are too concerned with…

"Remember Darwin? The strongest will survive."

"Social Darwinism" has very little to do with Darwin.

Re: Nootropics – The Facts About “Smart Drugs”

#55

Post by stephengillie »

intended wrote: post #39
stephengillie wrote: post #4

Unlike in athletics, academics isn’t necessarily a zero sum game. While in a race there is necessarily a winner and a loser, nobody in academics is held back if another student is better able to retain their information. No, but the doped student's advantage could cause her to be selected over another (undoped) student in college entrance exams, program entrance exams, and other educational competitions. Does this me…

This was the most self serving, disingenuous, logically unsound sentence I've read in the past few days. Firstly - "isn't necessarily a competition". A half truth. The rest of the time it is a competiton and is bloody damned important. In classes graded on a curve? Percentile based rankings? What about a country like India or Japan or any country where competitive exams determine your chance to gain an extremely comp…

The rest of the time it is a competiton and is bloody damned important.

Exactly. The academic system has much competition, and some professors teach through competition. Have you ever had a prof who failed the entire class then graded on a curve? So your 32% grade in the class translates to a grade of 3.6?

Who is going to have access to these drugs in a third world country?

Get ready to see articles about the "Nootropic Divide" between the more and less advantaged people of the world. Better, how long until employers start drug-testing for these, to make sure you're getting a sufficient dose to maximize your performance? I could see EA doing that.

Re: Nootropics – The Facts About “Smart Drugs”

#56

Post by loup-vaillant »

stephengillie wrote: post #4

Unlike in athletics, academics isn’t necessarily a zero sum game. While in a race there is necessarily a winner and a loser, nobody in academics is held back if another student is better able to retain their information. No, but the doped student's advantage could cause her to be selected over another (undoped) student in college entrance exams, program entrance exams, and other educational competitions. Does this me…

Even more unfair than drugs, there are native abilities. Some lucky ones are born athletes, others… well. A good body is a totally unfair advantage. Yet this is not cheating. Similarly some people are just brighter, smarter and less lazy than others. They will breeze through while others must sweat tears and blood if they ever hope to enter college. This is even more unfair, yet it is still not cheating.

The reason dope is officially cheating in sports is because they are a breach of explicit rules. It is the same as removing an enemy pawn when no one is looking. You could perfectly have sports where the use of dope were permitted (I'm not sure I would endorse it though: it may have unhealthy consequences —oh, wait it did).

Now college entrance exams are about selecting students smart enough to make it through the curriculum, and make a worthy career afterwards. Ideally, you'd want to select those most likely to succeed. My take is this: any way to deceive that predictor is cheating. Anything else is not. By this analysis, nootropics are cheating only to the extent they deceive the predictor. My bet is that someone willing to take such drugs to go to college will probably continue to do so later (permanently or when needed). In this case, the drug doesn't fool the predictor, it actually helps being a little smarter in the long term. What would be cheating would be to take the drugs for a short term benefit, then never or rarely do that again.

Finally, this really is not a zero-sum game. Even if only an elite 1% take those drugs, even if it does make things even more unfair than they already are, those people may solve problems faster for the rest of us, so we all benefit. And boy do we have problems that need solving.

Starting with Death.[1]

(One last detail: nootroopics also have to work and not have nasty side effects. Personally, I'm still a bit afraid.)

[1] I work from naturalistic assumptions. For those who believe in an afterlife: imagine your soul being destroyed instead of living happily ever after. I don't want that either.

Re: Nootropics – The Facts About “Smart Drugs”

#57

Post by bitwize »

acuozzo wrote: post #44
elemeno wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything I've read about Modafinil suggests that it's not addictive - for everything being Wikipedia along with some other sites which I don't recall off the top of my head (it was about six months ago when I did any research about it). It's a lovely little thing though, very nice clean focused sensation coupled with a lack of tiredness.

> Everything I've read about Modafinil suggests that it's not addictive - for everything being Wikipedia along with some other sites which I don't recall off the top of my head (it was about six months ago when I did any research about it). It's probably not addictive, but what if you become addicted to the lifestyle it makes possible?

It's probably not addictive, but what if you become addicted to the lifestyle it makes possible?

Steroids are considered psychologically addictive for this reason.

Re: Nootropics – The Facts About “Smart Drugs”

#58

Post by danneu »

tokenadult wrote: post #50

The article begins with "It’s a lengthy read, but don’t let the wall of text dissuade you." That's scary right there. Anyone who is scared off by this short, popular fluff piece needs a lot of help in reading (or is not a native speaker of English). To learn to read a piece like this thoughtfully and critically mostly takes practice in reading, not the latest "smart drug." I've been hearing people tout smart drugs fo…

You spent the entire comment condemning the lack of experimentation protocol, yet your final challenge is the most trivial of all.

What conclusion could you draw from your proposed duel? If someone can't beat you in a standardized IQ test after ingesting 20mg of amphetamine? Or a cup of coffee? Or 5g of a racetam? Seems to me your conclusion would be "I perform better than you even when you're mentally stimulated". Okay, you're smart and awesome.

I'd wager that most people taking nootropics are looking for personal results in our ubiquitous struggle to ward off lethargy while spurring motivation and concentration, not to win some mental duel with their peers.

Re: Nootropics – The Facts About “Smart Drugs”

#59

Post by mistercow »

paborden wrote: post #38

Please, please, please ... Be careful with Nootropics. I'm a bit of a consciousness-naut and self-experimenter who's obsessed about increasing productivity. I've experimented a lot with Nootropics. My thoughts? Modafinil. Stay away from it. The stuff is wickedly addictive and many people have experienced significant long-term side effects, especially if they try to go off it. Piracetam. Does a lot to reduce ADD and h…

>Modafinil. Stay away from it. The stuff is wickedly addictive and many people have experienced significant long-term side effects, especially if they try to go off it.

I have known quite a number of people who have taken modafinil, and none of them experienced more than minor side effects. I have several friends who stopped using it for long periods because they built a tolerance (tolerance != addiction), but none experienced withdrawal symptoms.

I used adrafinil for a while because it has the advantage of being unscheduled in the US, and I noticed weak tolerance building, but the only side effects I had were insomnia (while it was in effect) and mild headaches which went away with aspirin. The only reason I stopped taking it was that they revoked its approval in France, and none of the generics from other countries that I've found seem to work.

Re: Nootropics – The Facts About “Smart Drugs”

#60

Post by systemtrigger »

aelaguiz wrote: post #22

The article is really interesting, but I can't help but be suspicious of the data (opinion) contained within. The expert used in the article is John Holcomb, who owns a supplement e-commerce site. I can't find anything on his site that talks about his qualifications or any hard facts to back up most of this. I'm really interested in nootropics and increasing mental efficacy - but there is no shortage of snake-oil ven…

I question his motives because he recommends Piracetam daily dosage of 3 to 5 grams and said it may take up to 6 weeks to realize the effects.

I bought Piracetam on Amazon after someone here on HN recommended it, and for the past 2 months have been taking 800 mg per day. I often skip a few days and have not noticed any addiction symptoms.

I doubled my dosage one day, so took 1600 mg that day, and felt sick to my stomach. When I repeated the 1600 mg experiment again 2 weeks later, I threw up. I am 190 lbs 6 ft, YMMV but I can't imagine taking 3 to 5 grams.

Within a few minutes of swallowing a pill (800 mg) I feel more alert and without the jitteriness that caffeine brings. It seems to improve my general focus, writing, including programming, reading and speaking abilities. As with all self reporting you should absorb mine with salt.

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