Live data from Hacker News

A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

theatlantic.com

351–360 of 368 posts

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> overworked teachers who are more than willing to avoid even more work grading out-of-school assignments. This seems like where we'd take advantage of AI to grade the assignments. AI could take the first pass and then the teachers can proof it, cutting down the overall time spent.

This doesn't work particularly well; it's the same with getting students to mark each other's work and then having the teacher quality control. It's much faster to grade/give feedback on a piece of work than it is to verify the accuracy/comprehensiveness of existing grading/feedback.

Teachers who grade essays are not even reading them most of the time though. Maybe theyll read the first and last sentence and quickly skim the rest. The LLM will at least read it. The reality is the current education system doesnt work particularly well. Too many students not enough teachers

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#352
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can remember phones were not allowed in class and testing was generally done on paper. College was a lot more lax about this stuff than K-12 was. But colleges could and should proctor their exams more strictly.

No phones in class, at scale and enforced, feels like a last 5 years thing in K-12. And the trend was very much towards increased digital testing, pre-LLM. This is pivoting back to paper-based, but it's going to be as messy and slow of a transition as the no-mobile-device one was. Especially given how much money there is in "AI". And hamfistedly-handed, will likely leave another generation fucked over with regards to…

I wasnt allowed to use a phone during exams back in 2006.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#353
post #310

Maybe AGI is impossible not for any technical reasons, but because AI is a self-limiting technology? As AI improves, it destroys the educational system that creates the researchers that develop it.

LLMs democratize personal tutoring. AI can massively improve education, if done right.

There is nothing democratic about a technology being forced upon people. No one voted for this.

IME when VC says “democratizing” you can substitute “degrading” for the real meaning.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When google came around it took me about 10 minutes to figure out how to use it. Further when I saw things in the search results that didn't make sense or were plainly wrong, I had the pre-gpogle critical faculty to question things. Do you think we are helping K-12 students by letting AI doing hallucinated thinking for them? What incredible "AI skills" will they be missing out on if we restrict the exposure? How to t…

The google comparison is superficial. The skill needed is understanding what different modes of AI can and cant do across different domains, knowing when to use it vs when not to, developing judgment about AI content that goes beyond simple fact retrieval. We are creating a massive competency gap by treating AI exposure as somehow more dangerous than social media, which we've already allowed to reshape adolescent dev…

> The google comparison is superficial. The skill needed is understanding what different modes of AI can and cant do across different domains, knowing when to use it vs when not to, developing judgment about AI content that goes beyond simple fact retrieval.

It is not that superficial. More like you actually have multiple search engines that are competent, instead of a Google monopoly, and you learn which is good for what. We already do that for software where we mix and match. How many people that are using ChatGPT have any idea of model nuances? They still just type in the box and get answers. Loads of people don't even know about Claude. You give them three separate apps with exact same chat mode and they will figure it out which works better for what - doesn't take experience of using them during the years when the brain is still developing. More like a few weeks for an adult.

> knowing when to use it vs when not to, developing judgment about AI content that goes beyond simple fact retrieval

Yes, that requires growing up with independent critical thought, not getting used to accepting AI results at face value - which is what is happening all around us in schools, right now.

> We are creating a massive competency gap by treating AI exposure as somehow more dangerous than social media, which we've already allowed to reshape adolescent development with inarguably negative educational value.

One bad thing doesn't justify another.

> AI is already redefining job requirements and academic expectations. Students who first encounter these tools in college will be competing against peers who've had years to develop working usage patterns and build domain specific applications.

And what are those usage patterns they have had years to develop in school? Typing in a chat box? Sure, some enterprising and talented students may go beyond that but frankly if you have those traits, you'll beat the crap out of mediocre competition in no time. We have two sets of people - who are "software developers" (who think like one, whether they do or work as one or not) and the rest who just want to ask a question and move on. Are we saying that those two sections will converge?

If so, it depends on the state of the AI at that point. If it is more or less the same but just better with jobs requiring more agentic type of automation, sure, that can require some learning on how to use it. Again, that still requires breaking down a problem in discrete steps and managing the feedback loop. That requires critical thinking and are still typing instructions in plain text. Also, you need to be knowledgeable enough to figure out where the AI messed up.

If we are talking much more advanced AI approaching AGI levels, the jobs we are worrying about will be gone and you'll have basically a handful of advanced AI-centric jobs left for which very few will qualify anyway. That is a much bigger problem which can't be fixed by just letting more people use AI.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#355

An ex-gf of mine spent four years going through university to become an Occupational Therapist. She's severely dyslexic, so the university provided her with all sorts of assistance to get through her degree, from scribes in the exams to extra time for tests. She passed, and became a qualified Occupational Therapist. She landed a job in a local hospital. And on day one, was handed a huge pile of paperwork to complete.…

Why is the answer to completely upend the education system rather than the original issue of your ex-gf working for a shitty company that couldn’t accommodate her?

The ADA became a thing in the US for a reason after all.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#356

Unfortunately, this kind of story will continue to be a popular one in newspapers and magazines, garnering lots of clicks. It feeds into the "everything is different now" sort of desperate helplessness people seem primed to adopt with respect to AI sometimes. Obviously the answer to testing and grading is to do it in the classroom. If a computer is required, it can't connect to the internet. Caught with a cellphone,…

All of our tests including computer science exams were written on paper with a pencil. We can just go back to that.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that results in less education time. If you do homework in class then you have to give up lecture time The most advanced classes I took, including in high school, made us do the reading and initial problem solving at home and then advanced problem solving in class. This was true for math, English and economics. Lectures with application combined. But that doesn't work if students don't do the reading. Just as lectu…

The most advanced and best classes I had were small, Socratic, and had take home tests. We were able to get through a lot of material, in a lot of depth, because people did the reading, but a big reason people did the reading is everyone liked the class and the professor (granted, this was college). When I ended up teaching during my PhD I mimicked his style as best I could. Made my course very project based, made ho…

> 2 grad students complained to the department when I failed them for not turning in their final (they ended up being given Cs)

Wat.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#358
post #183

They seem surprised about this, but the cheating kids were always there. They just use different (and arguably easier) tools now. Blocking the AI won’t stop them from cheating, it’ll just make them revert to the old way of doing it.

They are not the same "cheating kids" though. How easy it is to get it to spit out your homework and how widespread it is encourages more people to give up, think "everyone is doing is, so why shouldn't I, I'm a loser if I work honestly", and do the same.

That’s exactly the same way kids in my school used to think about traditional cheating. Doing it well was considered a point of pride (amongst a certain group). I don’t think I ever understood it. It just making going to school a colossal waste of time.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#359
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best lectures follow a question-trytoanswer-getrightanswer pattern where students are basically doing homework as part of the lecture. Are you referring to the Socratic Method? I agree that homework is where a significant chunk of learning happens but I'm highly skeptical that the utility is preserved through such a short timeframe. Spaced repetition is highly effective for memory, and this is baked into any me…

> Sorry, you jumped a little here. Who is "we"? Right, this was in high school some 20 years ago in Slovenia and also in college after. Anything graded happened at school. All tests were open answer where you have to write 2 or 3 sentences. We also had oral exams in front of the whole class where the teacher asks you questions and you answer. In college the orals were more private because the classes were huge and th…

Thanks that helps. I mean it appears Slovenia has a pretty good general education system but I don't know much about their higher ed (it is really weird how the US is so good at higher ed but not general education[0])

I'm not opposed to the idea, but I still think things can be done a lot better. I left a much more detailed comment in the cousin to this one.

But yeah, that's called the Socratic Method. Big fan. When I taught I'd frequently ask students to answer. Basically while lecturing I'd stop at some points and ask them how they would go about solving certain challenges or whatever. Usually directly related to what would be on the next slide. This style is pretty common fwiw, and I even saw it throughout my education even prior to high school. But it is also unfortunate that there's also a lot of teachers who just begin talking and don't stop.

[0] As a side note, I made the claim in another comment about how you could drop a random but average student into a top school and I'd expect not a high variance on outcome. Well I think this discrepency is part of the evidence to that. Though the US varies widely in general education, with some states being world class and others being... well... Alabama is a state after all...)

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most advanced and best classes I had were small, Socratic, and had take home tests. We were able to get through a lot of material, in a lot of depth, because people did the reading, but a big reason people did the reading is everyone liked the class and the professor (granted, this was college). When I ended up teaching during my PhD I mimicked his style as best I could. Made my course very project based, made ho…

> 2 grad students complained to the department when I failed them for not turning in their final (they ended up being given Cs) Wat.

I'd say I was surprised but my first year of grad school I was a TA and caught two kids cheating. One student accidentally (maybe needs quotes? I'm unsure tbh) had his GitHub repo set to public. Two other students found it and just copy pasted his work. We had a meeting with the professor and he yelled at them about how the syllabus says you can't copy anything off the internet. I shit you not, the students' (juniors) excuse was "I didn't know GitHub was 'on the internet'". My jaw dropped. I looked at the professor and the only way I can describe it is that this dude had to do a full reboot. Like halt and catch fire situation. I swear I saw the gears stop moving in his head as he was trying to comprehend one of the stupidest things either of us have ever heard. Professor tried to get them expelled. Best we could do is give them a 0 on the assignment. And that's how I learned about the cheating metric... In the next class the prof mentioned if we catch anyone cheating again he's going to flunk even the person that work was being copied off of. Those students didn't pass and even without saying their names I saw them get kicked out of their social circles real quick. So students knew... and man they got paranoid...

The next year, my advisor pulled me aside. He talked about how some student said they didn't know GitHub was on the internet. I thought he was talking about my experience. Turns out he wasn't... He was talking about two other students, who he talked with independently, and were in his sophomore level class.

This was pre-covid btw. The other story was post. Things only got worse post and I heard similar stories from friends in other departments and other universities. A friend of mine teaching history on the other side of the country had Freshmen who failed an assignment that was "call the library, go check out a book."

So I think this context should help in understanding the actual problem here. I do think GPT is a problem. But like I said, I think the actual problem runs much deeper. Kids were turning off their brains before that... But it was definitely a very sharp drop with covid and another sharp drop after 3.5 came out.

Post reply on HN