Amazon RTO policy is costing it top tech talent, according to internal document • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon RTO policy is costing it top tech talent, according to internal document

#121

Post by sniffers » Fri, Sep 05, 2025, 6:48 AM UTC

Obviously true, but Amazon never wanted top tech talent. They wanted disposable tech talent. When I was there the expected tenure was 18 months. Managers were expected to fire 10% of their team every year. Benefits were mediocre and the pay was so so. They chewed through devs by putting them in brutal oncall rotations with expectations like, "when you are on call you have a maximum of 15 minutes from being paged to being checked in to the incident. Carry your laptop everywhere you go. Everywhere."

So, of course it's costing them talent. They just don't care.

Re: Amazon RTO policy is costing it top tech talent, according to internal document

#122

Post by IshKebab » Fri, Sep 05, 2025, 7:15 AM UTC

programmertote wrote: post #21

I left Amazon due to RTO. They hired me as a fully remote employee (I was told that the VP of Prime US was one of those who signed off on my remote arrangement). Anyway, a year later, they asked me to move to Seattle or Virginia (wherever their second office is) or Chicago (there's only like one or two directors from my team located there; most of the team are located in Seattle or Virginia). I started looking for a…

> you get paid once a month

I've never worked anywhere that didn't do this (in the UK). Are you suggesting they should pay more often? Is that normal in the US?

> AND the base salary was below 200K

Oh no! You guys are in for a shock if developer wages ever become more "normal" there (i.e. closer to the rest of the world).

Re: Amazon RTO policy is costing it top tech talent, according to internal document

#123

Post by barnabee » Fri, Sep 05, 2025, 7:30 AM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #43

koyote wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the number of people who work as well (or even better!) from the home is not zero, but the number of people who claim there's no difference and then end up doing significantly worse work, become a massive pain to get a hold of, become less motivated, etc. is way way higher For me the reverse thought always comes into mind: "The amount of tangible work achieved when in the office is close to zero". Countless chats,…

I should have realized that my comment relies on too much nuance for the average person who's crying themselves sick over RTO to engage with in any reasonable semblance of what it actually says . If you want to try reading it again with a clear head and not engage with the strawman you're building, you'll notice it doesn't make any claims to the effect of: - why offices work - that offices work for everyone (it claim…

> a lot of people, specifically in large companies, perform worse with significant WFH.

Better to give them the choice to start coming to the office more and see if it helps their performance, and fire them if not, than force everyone else to suffer, no?

Re: Amazon RTO policy is costing it top tech talent, according to internal document

#124

Post by bravetraveler » Fri, Sep 05, 2025, 7:35 AM UTC

IshKebab wrote: post #122

programmertote wrote: post #21

I left Amazon due to RTO. They hired me as a fully remote employee (I was told that the VP of Prime US was one of those who signed off on my remote arrangement). Anyway, a year later, they asked me to move to Seattle or Virginia (wherever their second office is) or Chicago (there's only like one or two directors from my team located there; most of the team are located in Seattle or Virginia). I started looking for a…

> you get paid once a month I've never worked anywhere that didn't do this (in the UK). Are you suggesting they should pay more often? Is that normal in the US? > AND the base salary was below 200K Oh no! You guys are in for a shock if developer wages ever become more "normal" there (i.e. closer to the rest of the world).

Twice a month is the usual trend here in the States.

This sounds like the types that enjoy a big tax refund, ignoring they had it to begin with. Unless adjusting tax withholdings, one also gives a free short term loan to Uncle Sam regardless of the cycle.

Contrived. At a point this is admitting a failure or unwillingness to budget.

Re: Amazon RTO policy is costing it top tech talent, according to internal document

#125

Post by bigpeopleareold » Fri, Sep 05, 2025, 8:21 AM UTC

I started to think that these type of articles posted on Hacker News are a bit excessive. This and the AI stuff. This is one American company (high-profile, for sure) that might or might not be having retention issues. It's up to them to decide that, individual employees of the said company to decide if this arrangement is still right for them and shareholders if this will be a worthy investment in the next years. I think a lot of people are none of these. In the meantime, these "top tech talent" probably make way more than I can ever possibly can, and have the mental acuity to keep up with the demands that their employer requires from them while continuing to have a higher ceiling on the type of employment benefits than I could ever have.

I know I will have an argument over this which I won't both participating in, so please just downvote me.

You want to know about my own employer's policy, and employer you might have never heard of? It's not like Amazon. Amazon is not a bellweather for the wider industry as I see it.

Re: Amazon RTO policy is costing it top tech talent, according to internal document

#126

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Sep 05, 2025, 8:29 AM UTC

If this or other perks are something dear to you, always fight to have them in the contract and be willing to turn down proposals otherwise.

I learnt at my own costs that taking stuff for granted that isn't on the contract is a huge mistake, at any moment gets dropped without even a we're sorry from management.

Re: Amazon RTO policy is costing it top tech talent, according to internal document

#127

Post by pjmlp » Fri, Sep 05, 2025, 8:33 AM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #113

randycupertino wrote: post #6

5 days a week RTO is just beyond the pale. 3 days, sure. 4 days, maybe. But 5 days in office is harsh. Top talent sees this as rude, lack of trust, unnecessary babysitting and middle managing. 3-4 days sure, good for networking, collaboration, etc. But give people 1 day a week flex at least to be trusted adults who can responsibly wfh.

5 days a week at the office is not happening for me unless they pay mid six figures. And I live in Europe, we don't get Facebook AI team salaries here :D Currently I'm 0-2 days a week at the office, my max so far has been 4 this year.

I am also hybrid, currently we can still distribute the monthly count as we feel like it, the moment they start pushing for more is when I will remind them of my remote work clause on the work contract, and then lets see, maybe I'll be again on the job market.

Re: Amazon RTO policy is costing it top tech talent, according to internal document

#128

Post by r_lee » Fri, Sep 05, 2025, 9:34 AM UTC

sniffers wrote: post #121

Obviously true, but Amazon never wanted top tech talent. They wanted disposable tech talent. When I was there the expected tenure was 18 months. Managers were expected to fire 10% of their team every year. Benefits were mediocre and the pay was so so. They chewed through devs by putting them in brutal oncall rotations with expectations like, "when you are on call you have a maximum of 15 minutes from being paged to b…

Right.

I saw one comment here replying to a post about why companies wouldn't just hire from Poland/India/etc. if they could do remote-only

He replied that you must hire in the US to get "high quality talent"

And the first thought I had was: is that really the case anymore, that companies are so desperate for "high quality"?

It increasingly seems like there is no such demand for that anymore, it's just about "how can we cut costs?" (the greatest corporate innovation ever)

Re: Amazon RTO policy is costing it top tech talent, according to internal document

#129

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Sep 05, 2025, 9:34 AM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #81

kevindamm wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn't be about hours in a seat, it should be about deliverables met and actions & communication around those that couldn't be met. For knowledge work and creative tasks, at least. I would really be surprised if Amazon didn't allow their top performers a day or two of WFH per week in pre-pandemic days. Other FAANGs basically had that policy before the pandemic. If they're really saying 5-day RTO for everyone, y…

This logic fails to account for priorities changing. If priorities change Friday morning it could mean all the work you did that week was worthless. Should one spend their whole weekend working to finish some deliverance or should it be limited by the expected hours? Similarly if someone front loaded 40 hours Monday through Friday and priorities change on Friday or a critical bug comes in people will have to wait unt…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon RTO policy is costing it top tech talent, according to internal document

#130

Post by ethbr1 » Fri, Sep 05, 2025, 9:45 AM UTC

renegade-otter wrote: post #117

technion wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea how i used to manage with five days in office. I am currently using myunch hour to see a doctor. A few weeks back I needed to see a plumber, and before that an electrician. Its five seconds out of the work day let them in and send them on their way but I guess we're looking at burning annual leave if I was stuck in office.

To add to that, we had almost no free time during the week to ourselves. Commute, dinner, shower, bed. So what did we do? We borrowed personal time from our sleep time, always feeling foggy and tired. I would wake up and go "eh, nothing that a cup of coffee won't fix", and off I went. I am the same way - 3 days I actually find invigorating. It cures that cabin fever. But back to back, five days, after the pandemic, i…

My father once pointed out that salary should be normalized against total work required time, commute included.

At 40 hours & 5 days / week in the office, even a 15 minute one-way commute is a -5.8% change in comp-per-work-time. 30 min is -11.1%. 45 min is -15.8%.