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A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

theatlantic.com

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Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#171

Post by alphazard »

The lesson here is adapt or die. The things they thought were important or difficult or impressive are no longer any of those things. Regurgitating information on a test or generating prose from the notes you took in class are tasks which are easy to stereotype, and now readily automated.

Rather than framing this as destroying education, it should be interpreted as proof that these tasks were always shallow. AI is still much worse than humans at important things, why not focus on those things instead?

The school systems are clearly not keeping up. Any kid who isn't doing project oriented creative work, aided by an LLM as needed, is not preparing for the the world they will likely inherit.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#172

Post by hn_acc1 »

csa wrote: post #76
zdragnar wrote: post #5

I recently found out that my nephew's school had no take-home homework before high school, instead having kids complete assignments during class time. At first, I was flabbergasted that they would deny kids the discipline building of managing unstructured time without direct supervision. Homework- at home- seemed like such a fundamental part of the schooling experience. Now, I'm thinking that was pretty much they onl…

> I recently found out that my nephew's school had no take-home homework before high school, instead having kids complete assignments during class time. At first, I was flabbergasted that they would deny kids the discipline building of managing unstructured time without direct supervision. Good! If they want to give kids the chance to develop the skill of managing unstructured time, that could easily be fit into the…

My kids (CA high school) were incredibly stressed with a heavy workload that seemed mostly pointless and specifically, teachers who didn't care and students who didn't care as a result and used AI and cheated whenever possible. Both opted out of high school after 2 years (GED-equivalent test, to junior college for 2 years). They were and are getting basically straight A/A+s. Older one just finished 2 years of JC with 2 associates degrees and 4 certificates, and transferred to state school for 2 years to finish BA.

My experience was wildly different. I was what was generally considered a middle-of-the-road high school in a good-to-great school district in Canada (the highest-performing one next to the university was a whole different level). I rarely had much homework other than writing a few essays - which I often printed on my dot-matrix printer (yes, this was in the 80s). I studied half an hour for my highest-level senior chem final and aced it. Maybe studied 1-2 hours for calc, etc. Computer labs were some of the best times - hacking Basic on PETs.

Got to university (computer engineering, just slightly below electrical engineering) and it was brutal. Dropped 25% from high school to 1A semester. Had no study habits, "just wing it" had worked just fine to this point - if anything, it had worked too well. Of course, basically everyone in my class of 80 had the same story: graduated #1 overall in their high school (just like me). Some had way better habits / discipline. We had one student who came back to school 10 years after trying to make it as a studio musician. I once asked him point blank: so, do you do 5 hours of homework a night (because he ALWAYS knew the answer, etc) - he looked at me straightfaced and said "I try to do 6". Eventually, I managed to graduate in the top 1/3 of my class, stay on to get an MASc and have had a ~30 year career in software, so I'm reasonably happy. But I've had a hard time identifying with my kids' experience - high school was a blast for me and super easy. University was not. It's the other way around for them.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#173

Post by ethbr1 »

chrisco255 wrote: post #169
ethbr1 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If substantially changing school device and testing policies is required by new technology, doesn't that mean everything is different now?

As far as I can remember phones were not allowed in class and testing was generally done on paper. College was a lot more lax about this stuff than K-12 was. But colleges could and should proctor their exams more strictly.

No phones in class, at scale and enforced, feels like a last 5 years thing in K-12. And the trend was very much towards increased digital testing, pre-LLM.

This is pivoting back to paper-based, but it's going to be as messy and slow of a transition as the no-mobile-device one was.

Especially given how much money there is in "AI".

And hamfistedly-handed, will likely leave another generation fucked over with regards to basic education (like the predatory social+mobile adoption before regulation did previously).

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#174

Post by greenspam »

Imagine back in the days when calculators were just invented. An 8 year old kid might have the similar complain: “my classmate finished a 4 digits number multiplication problem in 5 seconds which generally took 1mins.” People might say, in the long term, the kid who cheated would be less proficient in arithmetic, which turned out to be true. But when you think about it, it seems not the end of the world when most high schooler in US cannot do complicated arithmetic quickly and accurately without a calculator.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#175

Post by Dzugaru »

greenspam wrote: post #174

Imagine back in the days when calculators were just invented. An 8 year old kid might have the similar complain: “my classmate finished a 4 digits number multiplication problem in 5 seconds which generally took 1mins.” People might say, in the long term, the kid who cheated would be less proficient in arithmetic, which turned out to be true. But when you think about it, it seems not the end of the world when most hig…

I have a feeling this is somehow different. The tool is broad enough, that I don't have to think myself in a wide variety of tasks, not just one. Which hurts my intelligence way more.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#176

Post by OutOfHere »

GuinansEyebrows wrote: post #129
OutOfHere wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. There are kids who're struggling no matter how hard they try, because the teacher's explanation was miserable, or because they have to actually work part-time for a living. These kids need AI. Without AI they could risk being on the street when they turn 18. Later in life, when their life is more stable, these same kids will be the first to actually use AI to learn the then necessary concepts properly.

plenty of straight-A students are in those same classes with miserable explanations or have jobs. plenty of kids who flunk out of expensive private schools and don't work. always have been since long before AI. nobody "needs" these tools. they're conveniences. it sounds more like your issue is with the timing and structure of impersonalized childhood education.

If you are in effect asserting that the quality of the instruction offered in class is considered pretty good, that is a failed assertion right from the get go. AI helps the student to make up for common failures in the quality of education.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#177

Post by makeitdouble »

greenspam wrote: post #174

Imagine back in the days when calculators were just invented. An 8 year old kid might have the similar complain: “my classmate finished a 4 digits number multiplication problem in 5 seconds which generally took 1mins.” People might say, in the long term, the kid who cheated would be less proficient in arithmetic, which turned out to be true. But when you think about it, it seems not the end of the world when most hig…

To my knowledge, even before HP-48 level calculators came in the classroom nobody cared about arithmetic past middle school. The core of the teaching was proofs and a lot more theory, and that went on into CS for me.

I'd compare it to the ability to write and run basic assembly. We did it, and got checked on it, but that was not what we were there for.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#178

Post by makeitdouble »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #108
HDThoreaun wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bring back oral exams With 30 kids in a class Im not sure this is possible. Oral exams scale horribly

Bring back smaller classroom sizes.

Double education budget.

Most western countries I follow are cutting on public education and teachers are miserable. It doesn't sound promising to be honest.

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#179

Post by ipython »

greenspam wrote: post #174

Imagine back in the days when calculators were just invented. An 8 year old kid might have the similar complain: “my classmate finished a 4 digits number multiplication problem in 5 seconds which generally took 1mins.” People might say, in the long term, the kid who cheated would be less proficient in arithmetic, which turned out to be true. But when you think about it, it seems not the end of the world when most hig…

Even today though you’re still taught arithmetic without a calculator. My kids have spelling words even though we have spell check.

Why? Because otherwise they’d have no idea if the answer provided to them is “correct”. As the saying goes, garbage in garbage out. You type the wrong numbers into the calculator ? How would you know the answer is also wrong unless you knew “about” what the answer should be?

Re: A high schooler writes about AI tools in the classroom

#180

Post by Telemakhos »

ethbr1 wrote: post #173
chrisco255 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can remember phones were not allowed in class and testing was generally done on paper. College was a lot more lax about this stuff than K-12 was. But colleges could and should proctor their exams more strictly.

No phones in class, at scale and enforced, feels like a last 5 years thing in K-12. And the trend was very much towards increased digital testing, pre-LLM. This is pivoting back to paper-based, but it's going to be as messy and slow of a transition as the no-mobile-device one was. Especially given how much money there is in "AI". And hamfistedly-handed, will likely leave another generation fucked over with regards to…

"No phones" was the rule back in the 2000s, when phones were flip phones or pagers for drug deals. Then helicopter parents demanded to be able to contact their children at any time, including during classes, so phones were allowed. There was the added bonus of "What if there's a shooting? I need to be able to call my kid during a shooting!" Now, phones are not allowed again.

The takeaway is that phones should never have been allowed in school. They distract from school, and kids need to learn to focus on tasks without being distracted.

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