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Depression lies

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Re: Depression lies

#181

Post by SeanDav »

jdietrich wrote: post #180
SeanDav wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before I actually experienced depression first hand I might have made a comment pretty similar to yours. Before you actually experience the sapping, frightening, frustrating, even debilitating condition that is depression, it is easy to stand on the sidelines and make all kinds of logical arguments and find bits and pieces of research supposedly supporting any particular viewpoint, for or against. I would even have b…

You seem to be refuting an argument that I haven't made. Firstly, how very presumptuous of you to assume that I haven't suffered from depression. Anecdote is not the singular of data. Whether I have or have not suffered from depression has no bearing whatsoever on my ability to analyse the available data. Having had cancer gives you no insight whatsoever into the biology of cell division. Depression is known to spont…

Have you, personally suffered from depression or are you just making more logical arguments?

Re: Depression lies

#182

Post by scott_s »

jdietrich wrote: post #137

I am rather disappointed by much of the discussion in these comments. The HN community has always taken pride in being careful, analytical and data-led. If someone were to advocate an unproven cancer therapy based on anecdote, they would rightly be harshly criticised. The evidence base for SSRIs is extremely poor. The most favourable metastudies indicate only a very mild benefit, similar to that of many non-drug inte…

Other metastudies show only a weak effect in the most severely depressed patients.

That's not the conclusion in the articles you posted. From the PLOS Medicine article: These findings suggest that, compared with placebo, the new-generation antidepressants do not produce clinically significant improvements in depression in patients who initially have moderate or even very severe depression, but show significant effects only in the most severely depressed patients.

And from the JAMA article: The magnitude of benefit of antidepressant medication compared with placebo increases with severity of depression symptoms and may be minimal or nonexistent, on average, in patients with mild or moderate symptoms. For patients with very severe depression, the benefit of medications over placebo is substantial.

These conclusions are the opposite of your statement.

Re: Depression lies

#183

Post by lusr »

dkarl wrote: post #167
kahawe wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think it is great you take the time to help them like that; I also think this isn't something you should be doing, basically taking them through a "mini therapy". Now, granted, the line between "I just wanted to cheer them up" and "I showed them CBT" can be blurry but as soon as you take it onto yourself to actively make them better, I'd say you are strolling down a path you shouldn't. The main reason being I do…

Analyzing, talking through, and attempting to change thought patterns isn't just a clinical technique for serious problems. In my experience, the smaller the problem and the healthier the person, the more quickly and dramatically it seems to work. Other than people who have been in therapy or who have grappled with mental health issues on their own, I rarely see people using it, with one exception: I see the parents…

An excellent point and indeed I see my experiences with depression as a strength I can pass onto my children by teaching them to recognize and handle dysfunctional thought patterns in themselves and others.

Re: Depression lies

#184

Post by SoftwareMaven »

philwelch wrote: post #119
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't read the full article (paywalls...grumble...), but this[1] would indicate better-than-placebo performance for those with major depression. Please don't spread unsubstantiated rumors on this topic. As many of us know from personal experience, the results of giving people an excuse to say "that medicine doesn't work anyway" can be devastating. 1. http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1991-19312-001

I've gathered that selective publication of results is the main problem, actually.

Indeed[1]. It seems to be endemic of the entire medical field[2][3] and even further removed[4]. Combined with how difficult (if not impossible) it is to reproduce many findings[5], I would call these the most important problems in science today. Science cannot move forward without all of the data (positive and negative) in a reproducible fashion.

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18199864 2. http://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/Citation/2003/09000/Evi... 3. http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=198809 4. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjourna... 5. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020376480457705...

Re: Depression lies

#185

Post by saraid216 »

lisper wrote: post #176
cromulent wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So depression is not pathological but the idea of depression is pathological? How meta. Your comparison with cancer is odious, as you indicate. The idea of depression may be a cause of depression? Check. The idea of cancer might be a cause of cancer? Ridiculous. The OP may well have helped people with depression (or their friends) recognize or diagnose or de-stigmatize their condition. Your comment? Not so much. The…

> The idea of cancer might be a cause of cancer? Ridiculous. Not ridiculous at all. There are all kinds of plausible mechanisms for the idea of cancer to cause cancer. Here's just one example off the top of my head: stressing out over the possibility of getting cancer can stimulate the production of excess stomach acid, which can lead to acid reflux, which is known to increase the risk of esophageal cancer.

Hypochrondria is not the idea of cancer. It's the idea of having cancer.

Re: Depression lies

#186

Post by SoftwareMaven »

jdietrich wrote: post #180
SeanDav wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before I actually experienced depression first hand I might have made a comment pretty similar to yours. Before you actually experience the sapping, frightening, frustrating, even debilitating condition that is depression, it is easy to stand on the sidelines and make all kinds of logical arguments and find bits and pieces of research supposedly supporting any particular viewpoint, for or against. I would even have b…

You seem to be refuting an argument that I haven't made. Firstly, how very presumptuous of you to assume that I haven't suffered from depression. Anecdote is not the singular of data. Whether I have or have not suffered from depression has no bearing whatsoever on my ability to analyse the available data. Having had cancer gives you no insight whatsoever into the biology of cell division. Depression is known to spont…

our best treatments

And that's the point, isn't it. These are our best treatments. Are they great? Hell no, they aren't. If you are being subjected to them, it can be downright uncomfortable. But for some percentage of people, they work.

Your comment makes it seem like you think antidepressants are snake oil. They aren't. The problem is that the problem they are solving is incredibly complex (maybe what we call "depressions" is 5000 different syndromes) and we've just barely started to do anything remotely like real science in this arena (Freud, anyone?).

So rather than say "I'm surprised HN would think anti-depressants are worth anything", perhaps we should be saying "we need more and better research into mental illnesses."

Re: Depression lies

#187

Post by mnicole »

navs wrote: post #174
mnicole wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Effexor literally made me think and act in ways I never had before. There's the disassociative feeling you get from depression, and then there's what Effexor did; effectively making me a ticking time-bomb with an insanely vivid, active (and morbid) imagination. Really dark times, and coincidentally a few months after I'd quit it, Time magazine had a cover article about the rise of [teen] suicides because of it.

Can I ask what you switched to after dropping Effexor? My email is listed in my profile if you wish to answer privately.

Quite honestly it scared the shit out of me to the point where I no longer felt safe seeking aid from people who claimed to have answers. At the end of the day, none of the other anti-d's I'd tried (all of the major ones) did anything but take any emotions - negative or positive - away, and that's not how I wanted to live. For years I wasn't on anything, but more recently I tried Wellbutrin to similar results. As such I've made it more of a mission to find out what it really is that's causing this, rather than apply a band-aid to what is really just a side-effect of a bigger issue.

Re: Depression lies

#188

Post by eggdude »

baddox wrote: post #170
eggdude wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think whether people have a right to do it (which I also believe they do), is less important than realizing that their desire and decision to do it is based on faulty logic. Depression completely changes the way people think.

> Depression completely changes the way people think. But that's the point, right? Depression causes so much pain that some people decide it is better to end their life rather than suffer. I don't see how it's any different than someone in chronic pain from any terminal illness desiring physician-assisted suicide. Of course their decision is affected by the pain they're suffering. That's the whole point.

I agree there are parallels between cases of chronic pain, but I also think there are significant differences. Someone with just chronic pain might think "This pain is too much. I don't have it in me to suffer anymore" whereas a depressed person often causes their suffering with distorted thoughts like "I am always depressed. I have tried everything possible there is to try to get better. No one likes me or wants to be around me. Everything is hopeless. I have no reason to live"

Re: Depression lies

#189

Post by mcguire »

mej10 wrote: post #129
the_economist wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just anecdotally -- plenty of studies confirm this. Some people -- 30% of the people by some estimates -- simply suffer from fructose malabsorption. This means that when they eat foods with excess fructose (even fruit), they fail to properly absorb nutrients. In particular, individuals who suffer from fructose malabsorption fail to absorb tryptophan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose_malabsorption Tryptophan…

Any time I have mentioned that someone should change their diet to help them deal with any number of problems (weight, mild depression, seasonal affective disorder, overall energy levels), I am universally met with disbelief and dismissal. The fad diet industry has ruined people's ability to think clearly about the topic of diet. The part that gets to me the most is that I have had profound changes in my life due to…

Possibly because there are many people out there with any number of problems (weight, depression, asthma, acne, diarrhea, rising of the lights,...) who, when mentioning those problems, are universally met with suggestions to change their diet. From someone who has no idea what diet the sufferer has.

But I'm with you, there, buddy. It's like these people don't even know rutabagas exist and supply all of the particulas vitae necessary for human existence.

Re: Depression lies

#190

Post by donniezazen »

ftwinnovations wrote: post #22
donniezazen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have larger life threatening problems to deal with like earning their livelihood. There are always people around you and even if they can't help you they keep you distracted.

I've always wondered if that is the case. And if so, doesn't that mean there is a direct correlation between ease of living and depression? The less you have to worry about and deal with, the more likely you are to be depressed?

Developed countries have their own sets of problems. Developed countries tend to be more individualistic. In countries like India, you live a more social life, you can't just lock yourself up in a room and cry for hours. It is at least true for sub-urban area. You may like it or not there will be people around you. Life is also less automated. At many places you have to go and pay your electricity and phone bills. You will be more engaged most of the time.
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