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Rivian CEO: 'blows my mind' to see US auto makers shifting back to ICE vehicles

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Re: Rivian CEO: 'blows my mind' to see US auto makers shifting back to ICE vehicles

#51
post #42
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely what consumers think about when making a ourchasing decision. You can't go more than a couple of miles in a populated area without seeing a gas station. Charger stations on the other hand are few and far in between, and take much longer than a gas refill does. Gas prices are also a major economic indicator in people's minds. They have an idea of what the per gallon cost "should" be, and how much it…

Also, what a lot of consumers think is that it is basically free and it is not.

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Re: Rivian CEO: 'blows my mind' to see US auto makers shifting back to ICE vehicles

#52
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work from home and honestly might use a tank of gas a month; I also only own one vehicle. However, I do have a vacation home where I drive to/from every week from June to September and it does not have currently have the level of electric service, nor availability of charging infrastructure nearby, to allow for me to charge an EV w/o driving 25+ miles each way. So; to answer your question: how often do I drive 300+…

Unless your vacation home is off grid, there is almost no way you would not be able to have enough electrical service to charge an EV. Maybe not enough to install a big chunky 50-60A 240V outlet, but a much smaller and reasonable 240V 20A outlet is more than sufficient for most cars. You won’t have a full charge overnight with a 3.8kW charger, but it’ll be plenty usable for putting around town. Also, your anecdote is…

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Re: Rivian CEO: 'blows my mind' to see US auto makers shifting back to ICE vehicles

#53
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“ Electric vehicles have a dubious environmental impact, require special and costly new infrastructure, are inferior economically and do not align with US policy goals around energy.” Citations needed. Oil extraction is massively damaging, co2 is causing global weather turmoil, exhaust while better than the 70’s for passenger cars/trucks is still an air quality issue, noise pollution is worse for ice. And electric c…

> And electric cars are objectively more pleasant and nicer to ride unless one likes loud, slow to accelerate vehicles over smooth and quiet. I guess there will be some who prefer noise and lag for nostalgia. "Objective" is reaching a bit. Loud? My last two ICE vehicles have sufficient cabin noise-dampening to the point that one of the manufacturers can actually pump engine noise into the cabin. Tire noise from EVs i…

> Loud? My last two ICE vehicles have sufficient cabin noise-dampening to the point that one of the manufacturers can actually pump engine noise into the cabin.

Most cars are not like this, because they don't spend as much money on sound dampening materials. The baseline 'good' for an EV is just much higher. Also, at idle, ICE cars are louder.

> Lag? Unless you are driving an ICE with a large turbo, what lag?

Pretty much every ICE car that is commanded to rapidly accelerate must drop down a gear (or 2). The mechanical time to shift gears and then also rev match just physically takes time. More expensive ICE cars are faster, sure, but compared to even the most anemic EV, the EV will win in response time. As soon as you hit the accelerator, you get torque. It's just not even close. Likewise with deceleration. You have a very non-linear deceleration curve with an ICE vehicle that is neither smooth nor even.

Re: Rivian CEO: 'blows my mind' to see US auto makers shifting back to ICE vehicles

#54

Because chargers were enshitificated before they were widely deployed. I want to arrive on charger, connect the charging hose, wave a debit/credit card or my phone with NFC interface and start charging. But noooo, you need to have an account with your debit card linked to it and use their half assed application or you won't be able to activate charger. And you should better pray that charger in your destination is ac…

In AU, they already have public charging networks (Evie, for example) that allow you to pre register your VIN and just roll up, plug in and it starts charging.

Re: Rivian CEO: 'blows my mind' to see US auto makers shifting back to ICE vehicles

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many gas cars don’t have 500mi of range No but what they do have is the ability to pull into literally any Andy Griffith backwater town gas station and be on their way in 5 minutes. That makes their range nearly unlimited.

This need is a bit overstated. Keep in mind that unlikes a gas car you can charge up your EV at home. How regularly does the median American actually drive 300+ miles in a single day? The average American household has multiple cars - having at least one of them being a EV commuter appliance isn't that wild of an idea.

There is no need to fuel at home. Technically you could get large tank of diesel to do it. But going to stations is not big deal.

Re: Rivian CEO: 'blows my mind' to see US auto makers shifting back to ICE vehicles

#56

EVs are having their own little dotcom bust right now. You can't say the companies didn't try. Every automaker came out with a near identical EV that was too expensive. And some even made some pretty bold steps to stop ICE production on some models. EVs are still inevitable in the not too distant future so long as batteries keep improving, but the jump is not going to happen overnight.

It looks like worldwide 25% more EV's will be sold in 2025 vs 2024. I'm struggling to see how that is similar to a dotcom bust.

Re: Rivian CEO: 'blows my mind' to see US auto makers shifting back to ICE vehicles

#57
post #3

This trend has always been wild to me. The USA feels like a solid home of automaking since the inception of the ICE. They don't necessarily make the best cars but they have the infrastructure, knowledge & experience, and culture to innovate and drive the industry forward. The next big generational change in car design matures to commercial viability - the electric motor for cars - and the USA turns it into a bogeyman…

There’s no profit in converting to electric vehicles: a trillion dollars of electrical infrastructure upgrade costs would come due from corporate apartment holding companies, small-scale landlords, and parking garage owners having to deploy electric outlets of any wattage to every parking spot currently offered to renters (the majority of car owners) today. Just as with COVID and HVAC air exchange rates, the benefits…

You say “there’s no profit” and then describe the most tremendous business opportunity in a hundred years.

There’s no profit for the current oligarchy; but to say there is no profit to be made from electrifying a billion plus parking spots; to install and manage infrastructure for millions of small business partners, to build new power plants with ever increasing demand — it sounds like a free markets entrepreneurs wet dream.

Of course to admit such would be to admit we are in a oligarchic structure that is antithetical to a supposed “free market” and so the capitalists must conjure stories about how electricity just is impossible to produce and electrical lines literally cannot be added to the American infrastructure or it will all suddenly topple over.

Differentiating this narrative from the expansion of high speed internet is difficult. Woe is me the oligarchic natural monopoly subsidized or wholly compensated by the taxpayer but unable to advance at all; change is impossible.

Re: Rivian CEO: 'blows my mind' to see US auto makers shifting back to ICE vehicles

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no profit in converting to electric vehicles: a trillion dollars of electrical infrastructure upgrade costs would come due from corporate apartment holding companies, small-scale landlords, and parking garage owners having to deploy electric outlets of any wattage to every parking spot currently offered to renters (the majority of car owners) today. Just as with COVID and HVAC air exchange rates, the benefits…

You say “there’s no profit” and then describe the most tremendous business opportunity in a hundred years. There’s no profit for the current oligarchy; but to say there is no profit to be made from electrifying a billion plus parking spots; to install and manage infrastructure for millions of small business partners, to build new power plants with ever increasing demand — it sounds like a free markets entrepreneurs w…

> it sounds like a free markets entrepreneurs wet dream

Landlords would either have to give up profit to pay for these installations, and/or raise rent on their tenants to afford them.

Many tenants can neither inflation increases in rent, nor increases covering the capital expenditure of electrical outlets in rental parking spots. This share of tenants grows each year that inflation outpaces wages, independent of whether landlords bother with that capital expenditure (which, to date, they largely do not).

As this business opportunity is associated primarily with the worker class rather than any wealthy class, the opportunity only becomes profitable when those businesses that employ 'worker class' personnel — think Starbucks barista rather than SFBay A.I. engineer — are distributing profits to those personnel in the form of wage increases to a sufficient degree that the household's renting power is not decreasing. Any wage gap chart will show that, since the 1980s, non-wealthy households — including the former 'middle' class — have experienced a continuous reduction in purchasing power for several decades. One can reasonable assume this will continue barring non-free interventions in the market.

Given that any reasonable business would never voluntarily give up profits as wages unless compelled, we can assume that those footing the bill for the 'entrepreneur's wet dream' you describe would be landlords — there is, quite literally, no one else left to pay that bill. The state can't impose regulations requiring such upgrades and let the free market work it out because landlords will simply dump that cost into rent, sharply worsening the nationwide poverty and housing epidemic, which would reduce the total amount of revenue available from the rental market. Neither the state nor the landlords would benefit from that outcome.

If you have a different theory of free market that involves business voluntarily sharing revenue with workers without raising price, or landlords investing revenue in enhancements without raising rental costs — and especially without imposing 'non-free' regulatory or union pressures — then I'd love to hear more about that.

Re: Rivian CEO: 'blows my mind' to see US auto makers shifting back to ICE vehicles

#59
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“ Electric vehicles have a dubious environmental impact, require special and costly new infrastructure, are inferior economically and do not align with US policy goals around energy.” Citations needed. Oil extraction is massively damaging, co2 is causing global weather turmoil, exhaust while better than the 70’s for passenger cars/trucks is still an air quality issue, noise pollution is worse for ice. And electric c…

> And electric cars are objectively more pleasant and nicer to ride unless one likes loud, slow to accelerate vehicles over smooth and quiet. I guess there will be some who prefer noise and lag for nostalgia. "Objective" is reaching a bit. Loud? My last two ICE vehicles have sufficient cabin noise-dampening to the point that one of the manufacturers can actually pump engine noise into the cabin. Tire noise from EVs i…

Okay so to recap your rebuttal is coming from the context of “my last two cars were high end luxury vehicles with plentiful sound dampening” and “one of my cars is an extremely fast sports car”. Okay… yes from the standpoint of the 1% in their audi R8’s, I suppose ICE and EVs are equally quiet and lagless. I personally can’t speak to that so I’ll take your word.

But Comparing more normal people cars though like various mid range post 2020 Subarus, fords, rav4s, and 2010s Volvos, among others, those compared to EVs and plug in hybrids in EV mode including lower end ones like the crosstrek plug in hybrid - the latter were all quieter and had immediate acceleration w less lag compared those ice.

(And I’m excluding the 2025 stop start Subaru forester from that assessment because it’s lag is a whole other level from stopped. Not sure if that’s normal for all stop start cars, but perhaps this is the type of modern ICE innovation from the past 15years that the ev people are unaware of?)

Equally, airplane travel is a totally different experience when one is on a private jet or in first class versus taking southwest.

Re: Rivian CEO: 'blows my mind' to see US auto makers shifting back to ICE vehicles

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say “there’s no profit” and then describe the most tremendous business opportunity in a hundred years. There’s no profit for the current oligarchy; but to say there is no profit to be made from electrifying a billion plus parking spots; to install and manage infrastructure for millions of small business partners, to build new power plants with ever increasing demand — it sounds like a free markets entrepreneurs w…

> it sounds like a free markets entrepreneurs wet dream Landlords would either have to give up profit to pay for these installations, and/or raise rent on their tenants to afford them. Many tenants can neither inflation increases in rent, nor increases covering the capital expenditure of electrical outlets in rental parking spots. This share of tenants grows each year that inflation outpaces wages, independent of whe…

Landlords increasing rent totally sounds like part of a free market entrepreneurs wet dream to me! If I’m a free market entrepreneur the last thing I want is pesky rent controls limiting my ability to provide supply! Have you ever rented? Did they ever decrease your rent when the economy was looking down or do you acknowledge that they don’t actually care about the income of their tenants insofar as they can extract revenue from someone?

You must feel that a free market cares that some people will no longer be able to afford rent; I don’t believe the economic definition of a free market includes such an idea; I think it’s very happy to displace people from their homes in order to shuffle in those who are willing to pay higher rents; see also: gentrification

Your point hinges on the idea that rent for people making wages below “SFBay A.I. engineer” is not increasing or would not increase because of the inelasticity of these consumers to price increases; can you substantiate this claim in any way?

It’s also worth noting that there are lots of government grants going towards electrification of vehicles including installation of EV chargers, so even removing your idea about landlords refusing to raise rents because they are worried about their tenants (lol) there is still easy room for landlords to get grants to pay for the installation/maintenance of these chargers anyways.

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