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Not paying with cash

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Re: Not paying with cash

#21

Post by mapt »

Shank wrote: post #4

One thing I really love that Japan got right was the creation of e-money systems that are anonymous (you can get a Suica for 20,000 yen without any registration information), work offline (you don't need network at-payment, nor does the terminal), and are easily accessible (you can get them at any train station, you can charge them at any ATM or convenience store with cash). In contrast, a debit/credit card usually r…

Those prepaid visa cards don't actually exist, I think they were killed by AML/KYC. Instead, they appear to be "prepaid visa gift cards" accepted at less than a hundred large chains.

Re: Not paying with cash

#22

Post by rolph »

brettp wrote: post #20

Australian here, like the author. Apple Pay (and equivalents) work _everywhere_ here, including at the tiniest market stalls, and for the smallest purchases. I stopped carrying my wallet the moment my driver licence was available on my phone, the last piece of plastic I was mandated to carry around. While the paranoid nerd in me might occasionally wonder about all my spending being tracked, watching someone fumble wi…

where is that market ? thats exactly my prefered method of commerce.

Re: Not paying with cash

#24

Post by Shank »

csinode wrote: post #7
Shank wrote: post #4

One thing I really love that Japan got right was the creation of e-money systems that are anonymous (you can get a Suica for 20,000 yen without any registration information), work offline (you don't need network at-payment, nor does the terminal), and are easily accessible (you can get them at any train station, you can charge them at any ATM or convenience store with cash). In contrast, a debit/credit card usually r…

> work offline (you don't need network at-payment, nor does the terminal) Surely this is massively vulnerable to double spend attacks?

> Surely this is massively vulnerable to double spend attacks?

FeliCa uses mutual authentication with eventual bookkeeping and sync. I believe that there are some theoretical attacks on older cards but the terminals are regularly synchronized and get a ban list. In-practice, you’ll also be reported to the police, probably.

Re: Not paying with cash

#25

Post by rolph »

marssaxman wrote: post #16

I got irritated with the profusion of "no cash accepted" signs a few years back and started making a point of always carrying cash, to use whenever practical. I don't take it to an extreme, but I also don't want to live in a world where every transaction is trackable and all commerce is regulated by Visa, Mastercard, Apple, or Google.

i think anyone seeing very many piles of merchandise abandoned at checkout would be wise to review such decisions. it would definately be a failure to consider area demographic

Re: Not paying with cash

#26

Post by Shank »

cosmotic wrote: post #9
Shank wrote: post #4

One thing I really love that Japan got right was the creation of e-money systems that are anonymous (you can get a Suica for 20,000 yen without any registration information), work offline (you don't need network at-payment, nor does the terminal), and are easily accessible (you can get them at any train station, you can charge them at any ATM or convenience store with cash). In contrast, a debit/credit card usually r…

Meanwhile, there's no apparent way to pay for a train using an American android phone (or at least I couldn't figure it out last year). One of the two apps refused to install on non-japanese phones, the other installed but refused to run. Had to pay with cash and it was a huge pain. Half the time I inexplicably had to do a fare adjustment, a hugely embarrassing moment blocking the turnstile, especially considering th…

There’s not a reasonable solution using global Android phones, but you could obviously just buy a physical IC card and use that, which is what I was suggesting here in the first place.

Re: Not paying with cash

#27

Post by lmm »

csinode wrote: post #7
Shank wrote: post #4

One thing I really love that Japan got right was the creation of e-money systems that are anonymous (you can get a Suica for 20,000 yen without any registration information), work offline (you don't need network at-payment, nor does the terminal), and are easily accessible (you can get them at any train station, you can charge them at any ATM or convenience store with cash). In contrast, a debit/credit card usually r…

> work offline (you don't need network at-payment, nor does the terminal) Surely this is massively vulnerable to double spend attacks?

Not really - what's the attack? You could maybe somehow clone a card with a balance on it and spend that balance twice, if you can figure out that a particular terminal is offline (or have a way to take it offline), but how do you turn that into an attack that you can scale enough to cover the fixed costs? You're not getting your own terminal without a contract and due diligence on your company, so you can't really pull off an attack that needs to control both sides.

Re: Not paying with cash

#28

Post by rtpg »

cosmotic wrote: post #9
Shank wrote: post #4

One thing I really love that Japan got right was the creation of e-money systems that are anonymous (you can get a Suica for 20,000 yen without any registration information), work offline (you don't need network at-payment, nor does the terminal), and are easily accessible (you can get them at any train station, you can charge them at any ATM or convenience store with cash). In contrast, a debit/credit card usually r…

Meanwhile, there's no apparent way to pay for a train using an American android phone (or at least I couldn't figure it out last year). One of the two apps refused to install on non-japanese phones, the other installed but refused to run. Had to pay with cash and it was a huge pain. Half the time I inexplicably had to do a fare adjustment, a hugely embarrassing moment blocking the turnstile, especially considering th…

In some stations now there are some entry points that use "standard" visa touchless payments that can be used now I think.

Your android phone likely doesn't have the right NFC tech that iPhones have (google Felica, it's a separate NFC standard used basically only in Japan. Apple builds it into all of their iPhones, most android phones outside of Japan do not). It's mostly just a case of divergent tech, along with Apple being willing to spend money to avoid SKU differentiation/support people traveling in Japan.

Re: Not paying with cash

#29

Post by ausssssie »

brettp wrote: post #20

Australian here, like the author. Apple Pay (and equivalents) work _everywhere_ here, including at the tiniest market stalls, and for the smallest purchases. I stopped carrying my wallet the moment my driver licence was available on my phone, the last piece of plastic I was mandated to carry around. While the paranoid nerd in me might occasionally wonder about all my spending being tracked, watching someone fumble wi…

Yes everywhere. Car parks. Schools. Cafes. Antique shop in a quaint village. The only cash only places are really just trying to evade tax, or are some 50 year old business refusing to keep up out of stubbornness.

And now we rarely have the "it wont connect lets try again it takes 2 minutes" dance of 10 years ago.

Re: Not paying with cash

#30

Post by theamk »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #18

Budgeting with the data trail of a card is significantly easier if you have a lot of transactions. It's also generally cheaper due to cashback and other incentives. Other than that I've always found the idea that cash is "inconvenient" a bit of a child-like argument. Okay, yeah, you have to count some coins, you also have to brush your teeth and use a knife and fork instead of your hands, come on.

We improve our life with technology all the time. Electric lights, refrigerator, AC, washing machine, dishwasher, electric toothbrush...

Nothing "child-like" in trying to make your life better, even in small ways.

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