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What is it like to be a bat?

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Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#31

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

bondarchuk wrote: post #19

> "An organism has conscious mental states if and only if there is something that it is like to be that organism – something that it is like for the organism." IMHO the phrasing here is essential to the argument and this phrasing contains a fundamental error. In valid usage we only say that two things are like one another when they are also separate things. The usage here (which is cleverly hidden in some tortured la…

This is the conclusion I come to whenever I try to grasp the works of Nagel, Chalmers, Goff, Searle et al. They're just linguistically chasing their own tails. There's no meaningful insight below it all. All of their arguments, however complex, all rely on poorly defined terms like "understand" "subjective experience", "what it is like", "qualia", etc. And when you try to understand the arguments with the definition of these terms left open, you realise the arguments only make sense when the terms include in their definition a supposition that the argument is true. It's all just circular reasoning.

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#32

Post by bondarchuk »

trescenzi wrote: post #21
bondarchuk wrote: post #19

> "An organism has conscious mental states if and only if there is something that it is like to be that organism – something that it is like for the organism." IMHO the phrasing here is essential to the argument and this phrasing contains a fundamental error. In valid usage we only say that two things are like one another when they are also separate things. The usage here (which is cleverly hidden in some tortured la…

There is no fundamental error it’s purposefully exactly as you state. Nagel is saying that consciousness is that second thing.

>Nagel is saying that consciousness is that second thing.

That's exactly what I'm saying is erroneous. Consciousness is the first thing, we are only led to believe it is a separate, second thing by a millenia-old legacy of dualism and certain built-in tendencies of mind.

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#33

Post by card_zero »

antonvs wrote: post #25
card_zero wrote: post #9

Dennett has a character telling a story about a bat: Here's Billy the bat perceiving, in his special sonar sort of way, that the flying thing swooping down toward him was not his cousin Bob, but a eagle, with pinfeathers spread and talons poised for the kill! He then points out that this story is amenable to criticism. We know that the sonar has limited range, so Billy is not at least perceiving this eagle until the…

What is that criticism supposed to be criticizing? Nagel's paper covers a lot of ground, but none of what you described has any bearing on the point about it "what it's like" as a way to identify conscious experience as distinct from, say, the life of a rock. (Assuming one isn't a panpsychist who believe that rocks possess consciousness.)

The pessimism, the "facts beyond the reach of human concepts".

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#35

Post by bondarchuk »

antonvs wrote: post #23
bondarchuk wrote: post #19

> "An organism has conscious mental states if and only if there is something that it is like to be that organism – something that it is like for the organism." IMHO the phrasing here is essential to the argument and this phrasing contains a fundamental error. In valid usage we only say that two things are like one another when they are also separate things. The usage here (which is cleverly hidden in some tortured la…

Do you believe that each run of a ChatGPT prompt has a conscious experience of its existence, much like you (presumably) do? If you don't believe that, then you face the challenge of describing what the difference is. It's difficult to do in ordinary language. That's what Nagel is attempting to do. Unless you're an eliminativist who believes that conscious experience is an "illusion" (experienced by what?), then you'…

Wait a minute - it's still possible to believe chatgpt is unconscious for the same reason a game of tetris is unconscious.

I also don't think it's fair to say I'm just quibbling about wording. Yes, I am quibbling about wording, but the quibble is quite essential because the argument depends to such a large extent on wording. There are many other arguments for or against different views of consciousness but they are not the argument Nagel makes.

(Though fwiw I do think consciousness has some illusory aspects - which is only saying so much as "consciousness is different than it appears" and a far cry from "consciousness doesn't exist at all")

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#36

Post by jibal »

esafak wrote: post #20
bettating wrote: post #15

What is it like to be another person?

I'm not sure how to answer the even more fundamental question, "What is it like to be yourself?" What constitutes a valid answer? It's a vague question.

I don't believe that the phrase "what it's like" (in this philosophical sense) is coherent. When people like Nagel or Chalmers are asked to explain it, they liken it to other incoherent assertions.

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#37

Post by samirillian »

Ive wondered if to a bat a bat is more like a whale, swimming through the air, calling out at a rate and pitch sort of matching the distance its electrical signals travel. To them they aren’t moving fast at all, or maybe to them maybe humans are like ents, plodding along so slow talking like ents.

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#38

Post by Dumblydorr »

bee_rider wrote: post #11

Can a bat answer the question of “what is it like to be a bat?” I mean, I guess they would have to be able to comprehend the idea of being, and then the idea that things might experience things in ways other than how they do. Bats don’t seem like very abstract thinkers. I bet if we could communicate with crows, we might be able to make some progress. They seem cleverer. Although, I’m not sure I could answer the quest…

The very capability and flexibility of language drove evolution of the mind beyond what species with less linguistic behaviors could handle. After all, facility with language is a massive survival benefit, in our species more than any other. It’s circular because feedback loops in evolution are circular too.

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#39

Post by vehemenz »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #24

Daniel Dennett was the only good part of the "New Atheism" movement. May he rest in peace.

The moniker was mostly invented by the press. But if we're talking about all four "horsemen," I think they all made positive contributions to their respective fields. Likewise, there are fair critiques one can level at each of them, including Dennett.

Re: What is it like to be a bat?

#40

Post by trescenzi »

bondarchuk wrote: post #32
trescenzi wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no fundamental error it’s purposefully exactly as you state. Nagel is saying that consciousness is that second thing.

> Nagel is saying that consciousness is that second thing. That's exactly what I'm saying is erroneous. Consciousness is the first thing, we are only led to believe it is a separate, second thing by a millenia-old legacy of dualism and certain built-in tendencies of mind.

So then are you saying there is no such thing as consciousness? That everything is conscious? The intent of that quote is to say “consciousness is subjective experience”. You don’t need dualism to agree with that quote. I agree with Nagel’s general construction but I’m also a materialist. The hard problem doesn’t mean magic is needed to solve it, just that we don’t have a good explanation for why subjective experience exists.
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