Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

thenexus.media

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

561–570 of 727 posts

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#561

Post by stavros »

benreesman wrote: post #345
mattnewton wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west Okay but that is exactly why I would prefer a western liberal government. It is better and that is ideal is worth criticizing authoritarians for, and fighting to keep in the west.

There isn't an "authoritarian bit", it's not binary. When I was young the idea that your own computer would spy on you, or the one in your phone, or in your car? That was a William Gibson novel, wiretaps happened to mob bosses, you didn't worry about it happening to you as part of a dragnet. Security camera? You mean in a bank right? Microsoft bundling IE was so egregious that the department of justice took time off…

I haven't seen anything more authoritarian than the fact that, when you travel, someone will open your suitcase, rifle through your stuff, then close it again, and maybe leave you a little "you are being watched" note, just to make sure you know you shouldn't try anything funny.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#562

Post by SilverElfin »

Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

Okay. But you still can’t have repercussions from the government for your speech in America. On this issue Europe is definitely backsliding - for example, see UK police showing up at doorsteps for social media posts). But countries like China and Turkey take it MUCH further. You can be jailed for years for political speech or wrongthink. That does change day to day life. You can’t think or act freely. At best you can live a lie and stay quiet.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#563

Post by Barrin92 »

rafaelmn wrote: post #510
specproc wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is it. I've lived under governments of a variety of different stripes in some very different parts of the world, I've lived in war zones. Day to day life has been more or less the same across all of them. You go shopping, go to work, see friends, have a few beers or maybe a smoke, eat out, go to weddings, birthdays and funerals, play sports. People run businesses, post memes. The way non-OECD, "non-democra…

> Day to day life has been more or less the same across all of them. This is a wild take, unless you mean that in thw sense of wake up, eat, work and sleep kind of way. If I call the prime minister a criminal liar - worst that will happen is I get a defamation lawsuit. In authoritarian countries I go to a prison camp, and the neighbors are the one to report me. Even if I'm not political - if step on toes of people in…

>unless you mean that in thw sense of wake up, eat, work and sleep kind of way.

this is what 99% of people spend 99% of their time on. If you give most people the choice between a place that has jobs, clean trains and where women can walk safely at night and one that looks like the Purge but you can insult the prime minister we can make a bet how people will vote with their feet.

This is why China makes the claim that it is actually more democratic[1]. This is not merely propaganda. They are making the case that delivering material goods to people rather than exhausting yourself in some idiocracy-like circus of abstract rights is what should be the point of government.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole-process_people%27s_democ...

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#564

Post by AnimalMuppet »

saghm wrote: post #351
hax0ron3 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference. Just imagine the difference in the level of fear that you would feel about 1) getting up in a public square in the US and yelling that Trump is a terrible person who should be removed from power, vs. 2) getting up in a public square in Russia and yelling that Putin is a terrible person who should be removed from power.

> getting up in a public square in the US and yelling that Trump is a terrible person who should be removed from power I think lot of people I know would feel concerned about what might happen to them if they did that right about now. I don't pretend to know anything about you, but it might be worth examining whether the level of concern you expect people would have about this might vary quite between people with dif…

If I did that, I would expect that I would get some dirty looks. I might get yelled at. I might even get beaten up (by private individuals, not by the authorities). The cops might come by and cite me for disturbing the peace.

I would not be disappeared. I would not be charged with a felony. I would not be imprisoned for years or decades.

And, where the rubber meets the road for my personal mental health: I can say what I think to my friends and family. They may disagree. They may even argue. They're not going to report me to the secret police, nor are there secret police waiting for someone to report something.

That distinction really matters.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#565

Post by ActorNightly »

causal wrote: post #496
rlt wrote: post #488

“The only difference between your phone and China's social credit system is that China tells you what they're doing.” Weird take. There’s a massive difference between a centralized government-run system and a decentralized system run by individual companies. Credit scores are closest but limited to financial behaviors

Credit scores are used for a lot more than finances. You could argue everything they're used for is tied to money some way, but since everything is being sold to us as a service that doesn't leave much out. They are also very much not decentralized.

The thing about credit scores is that its deterministic. I.e no matter which ideology you come from, you can have a good credit score with deterministic practices.

Meanwhile, in China, social credit is ideological in nature. I.e if you disagree, even if you are factually correct, you get penalized.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#566

Post by Bukhmanizer »

rationably wrote: post #363
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

> some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble That's... Sufficiently concerning, don't you think?

Yes thats my point. The average person may feel that they are completely free, because they live their lives within the boundaries of what the ruling party wants.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#567

Post by insane_dreamer »

derelicta wrote: post #350
insane_dreamer wrote: post #294

I agree with the article's assessment that the US also has a social credit scores, but: - it's not at all the same as an aggregated government-assigned score (though we may be on the road to that) - the take of "things are so bad in China and basically the same here" are very naive; live in China for 5+ years and I guarantee you'll have a different view

Regarding the second point: I know right? If a lot more peeps were to have a chat with the average chinese netizen, I think it would shatter a lot of misconceptions about the People's Republic.

The problem if you’d have to live there quite a while and becomes friends and earn peoples trust before they’ll confide in you what they really think. That’s why so many of these takes about China are wrong.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#568

Post by ux266478 »

SilverElfin wrote: post #562
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

Okay. But you still can’t have repercussions from the government for your speech in America. On this issue Europe is definitely backsliding - for example, see UK police showing up at doorsteps for social media posts). But countries like China and Turkey take it MUCH further. You can be jailed for years for political speech or wrongthink. That does change day to day life. You can’t think or act freely. At best you can…

> But you still can’t have repercussions from the government for your speech in America.

You absolutely can. The obvious example most frequently talked about is that there are plenty of things you can say, which if the wrong person hears them or they trigger automated alarms, it will get you an unfriendly visit by people flashing badges. They might be there to give you a threatening talking-to, or they might be there to arrest you full-stop.

The less obvious example is that even if you don't cross any lines to trigger a direct response like that, it's recorded all the same. It will shape future interactions with law enforcement agencies. You will be flagged as a person of interest, as a hostile actor, etc. Legal speech can very easily make you suspicious and law enforcement will treat you accordingly before they've ever met you. It's not a recipe for a good outcome when the people with badges start off thinking you're likely to pull a gun on them.

At times, it's been far worse than this. I'll direct you to COINTELPRO, or any of the other mryiad of historical instances where the US government has protected its interests by going after domestic elements it sees as subversive.

> On this issue Europe is definitely backsliding

Europe never had free speech to the degree that America did. In many countries, it's unlawful to speak ill of royal figureheads for example.

> for example, see UK police showing up at doorsteps for social media posts

This absolutely happens in America, as I mention above. You might say it's to a different degree, but the end result is the same.

> You can be jailed for years for political speech or wrongthink.

All it takes is for you and your ideology to be labelled as extremist and terrorist, which is a wholly arbitrary line to draw.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#569

Post by ch4s3 »

immibis wrote: post #360
ch4s3 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really isn't an argument. You have tons of meaningful economic choices everywhere in American life. You can bank with any bank and look for competing offers for credit to do useful things. For example you can buy a home and shop for a better interest rate by taking an offer for a loan from one lender to another and 9 times out of 10 you'll come away with a better offer. But you can easily not take on a loan and ch…

Can you not bank, if all the banks are colluding against you? And still have the rest of your rights? Can you rent without a four times yearly inspection by the landlord?

> Can you rent without a four times yearly inspection by the landlord?

I've literally never heard of this.

> Can you not bank, if all the banks are colluding against you? And still have the rest of your rights?

All the banks? There are 3,917 commercial banks and 545 savings and loan associations in the US. It's probably the most banks per-capita of any country. You'd be hard press to not be able to even work with a local credit union.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#570

Post by ruszki »

SilverElfin wrote: post #562
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

Okay. But you still can’t have repercussions from the government for your speech in America. On this issue Europe is definitely backsliding - for example, see UK police showing up at doorsteps for social media posts). But countries like China and Turkey take it MUCH further. You can be jailed for years for political speech or wrongthink. That does change day to day life. You can’t think or act freely. At best you can…

As an outside observer, it absolute looks like that the American government punish people for their speech. Of course, they say something else, like we just kidnap you from the street, or we just revoke your grant, or we just force your university to kick you out. Or simply flat out ban your free speech, like teachers’ one in schools. And even if they do it illegally, and they give you the opportunity to use your rights, lawsuit themselves can be still damaging.

Also, there were several news in the past decades about cases when police was even at the doorsteps of perpetrators before their mass shooting because of their social media posts (but more times, Americans were disappointed that police didn’t prevent the shooting even when there were incriminating social media posts). The problem is not social media posts, it never was. It’s their content. And also, it’s not just social media posts most of the time when the police come to your doorsteps even here in Europe. But that cannot be made to sensationalist headlines.

It’s still worse the law situation in Europe, but an adversarial government can find ways to circumvent even the better laws. And from the outside, it looks like that this would happen exactly in the US.

Post reply on HN