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Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

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Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#101

Post by PakG1 »

jrwoodruff wrote: post #94
deelowe wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Injustice means one thing for me and another for someone living in China. I have no idea what the standard of living is over there for a typical factory worker. Is it better or worse than the alternatives? I don't know. Foxconn could be a pioneer of beter living and working conditions for the country and I'd never know it. I'm biased towards a first world view on these matters. Everything must be considered when doin…

Injustice means one thing for me and another for a negro. I have no idea what the standard of living is for typical negros. Is it better or worse than the alternatives? I don't know. Confederate cotton farmers could be a pioneer of better living and working conditions for negros I'd never know it. I'm biased towards a Union view on these matters. Everything must be considered when doing these types of comparisons, bu…

The situation for slavery in America was resolved only because of civil war. For the problems that exist in China, the Chinese government's number one fear is that something similar could happen because they can't fix their problems any other way. And while ignorant people in the west may cheer and comment that it's necessary to break a few eggs to make an omelette, that is not a situation that would be considered preferable by any means for anybody.

I always see a lot of people complaining about Foxconn and the like, but nobody offering any solutions that would actually work. It's especially annoying when they don't acknowledge exactly why the problem is so difficult to solve, considering all the political, economic, social, and technological trends that contribute to the problem. IMO, those who criticize the problem, but can't offer any viable solutions, should at least put their money where their mouth is and not contribute to the problem. This means they shouldn't buy any electronics or in fact, shouldn't buy many things. Most stuff is made in China these days, or other countries with similar lax issues.

It's a complicated issue, and I see too much straw man applied to this issue too many times.

Living here, I realize most people have no idea how poor the vast majority of people are in China. I had no idea until I came here. I'm not saying the situation is acceptable. I am saying the situation is too complicated for the commentary we see over and over again.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#102

Post by PakG1 »

zenocon wrote: post #91
deelowe wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did and I didn't see anything that provided comparison with conditions in other Chinese factories. I have no way to know what's typical and what's not.

> However, the Chinese new agency Shanghai Evening Post has posted a pretty scathing review of the working conditions at Foxconn, and in particular the iPhone 5 production line. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Chinese media to do a hit piece for Chinese readers if the working conditions are the norm.

It does make sense when Apple is involved and is a foreign company that makes oodles of cash. It then becomes a very political thing. Plus, normal factories are nowhere near Foxconn's scale, so they're usually not worth reporting on, unless you're doing an industry-wide report. Foxconn has captured the world's attention. The industry has not. What is flashy is what sells, always has.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#103

Post by guelo »

podperson wrote: post #67

This sounds horrible. I would hate to do it. But it actually sounds much less bad than working in an order fulfillment warehouse in the United States (at least you can go home to sleep, I guess). http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f... Amazon is a market leader too, and there's almost no coverage of how it treats its workers. Likewise Google and Samsung (the latter is considered unusually bad,…

America's 40 hour work week, overtime rules, break requirements, chemical handling safety rules and a bunch of other OSHA regulations make the worst American job infinitely better.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#104

Post by hcarvalhoalves »

I like how how they try to point those things back at Apple, but the fact is, everything built on China is the same. Foxconn is rich because they do that, and China is rich because all factories do that.

China is a regime, and it's convenient for the west that it stays that way. It's a source of inexpensive labour force and a place you can pollute building your gadgets. If they were to follow the most strict rules from EU/US, there's no way in hell that you would have access to cheap electronics.

Now I ask: would you exchange first world conditions for those workers for more expensive products? The majority of us consumers don't have a clue, we just go for what has a good cost/benefit. Ethics often isn't a factor on where we spend our money.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#105

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

peterwwillis wrote: post #73
epo wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big words. The Internet is full of windbags asserting we need to make a difference. Notice how none of these people ever seem to attempt to do so? They usually limit themselves to vacuous back-of-a-cornflake-packet, trendy posturing like this.

...Which is why the first option in my philosophy is accepting the hypocrisy. I actually am totally fine with slave labor because it's much easier than the latter option: doing something about it.

Why's it hypocrisy?

Simply doing nothing is only hypocritical if that's contrary to other actions or statements I make.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#106

Post by philwelch »

Vivtek wrote: post #79
deelowe wrote: post #53

This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. You know how I know this article is trash? This statement right here: "It also appears that windows have had bars put over t…

what's with this fixation on Foxconn and Apple? Apple is the most successful business in history. They have literally billions of dollars in the bank. The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions is dissonant with the glowing opinion of them in the American press. It is seen as hypocritical. From your tone, I infer that you think you may agree - but that you feel conflict…

> The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions...

Exploitation is not a fact; it's a judgment.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#107

Post by philwelch »

jrwoodruff wrote: post #94
deelowe wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Injustice means one thing for me and another for someone living in China. I have no idea what the standard of living is over there for a typical factory worker. Is it better or worse than the alternatives? I don't know. Foxconn could be a pioneer of beter living and working conditions for the country and I'd never know it. I'm biased towards a first world view on these matters. Everything must be considered when doin…

Injustice means one thing for me and another for a negro. I have no idea what the standard of living is for typical negros. Is it better or worse than the alternatives? I don't know. Confederate cotton farmers could be a pioneer of better living and working conditions for negros I'd never know it. I'm biased towards a Union view on these matters. Everything must be considered when doing these types of comparisons, bu…

You're comparing impoverished people taking jobs of their own free will to chattel slavery?

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#108

Post by MiguelHudnandez »

philwelch wrote: post #106
Vivtek wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's with this fixation on Foxconn and Apple? Apple is the most successful business in history. They have literally billions of dollars in the bank. The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions is dissonant with the glowing opinion of them in the American press. It is seen as hypocritical. From your tone, I infer that you think you may agree - but that you feel conflict…

> The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions... Exploitation is not a fact; it's a judgment.

The negative connotations for the word "exploit" (1) are baggage. The word itself does not require a negative interpretation.

Indeed, for the actions of a corporation, failure to exploit is damning evidence of incompetence.

(1) https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aexploit

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#109

Post by bmohlenhoff »

HorizonXP wrote: post #78
deelowe wrote: post #53

This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. You know how I know this article is trash? This statement right here: "It also appears that windows have had bars put over t…

So wait: because these workers are Chinese, and their working conditions are better than other Chinese factories, they shouldn't be demanding better conditions? Got it. So because people lost the genetic lottery and were born in China, they're lesser than you, and don't deserve the same rights and privileges that you do. I'd like to see you try and work in these conditions and then try to have the same opinion. This…

Whoa now, ad hominem much? Let's keep the mudslinging to a minimum, please.

The point he's (admittedly somewhat poorly) attempting to make is that the article doesn't have enough context to draw conclusions about the greater state of factory workers across the entire Chinese industrial base. He never states that the workers shouldn't demand better working conditions, and never says that Foxconn offers a better work environment than other factories.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#110

Post by philwelch »

HorizonXP wrote: post #78
deelowe wrote: post #53

This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. You know how I know this article is trash? This statement right here: "It also appears that windows have had bars put over t…

So wait: because these workers are Chinese, and their working conditions are better than other Chinese factories, they shouldn't be demanding better conditions? Got it. So because people lost the genetic lottery and were born in China, they're lesser than you, and don't deserve the same rights and privileges that you do. I'd like to see you try and work in these conditions and then try to have the same opinion. This…

It's interesting how middle-class people in the first world elevate their own decadence to the level of a human right. For most of human history, people have had to work very very hard and endure massive absolute poverty. Even today, somebody has to go pick fruit all day and even unemployed Americans aren't willing to: http://seattletimes.com/html/dannywestneat/2016582976_danny2...
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