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Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

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Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#81

Post by bkmartin »

deelowe wrote: post #53

This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. You know how I know this article is trash? This statement right here: "It also appears that windows have had bars put over t…

Your statement is like looking at steel mill conditions in the early 1900's in Pittsburgh and the people on wall street saying... "Well, why are they pissed? Its not like its slavery."

Just because other Chinese working conditions suck doesn't mean that its right. Yeah, so maybe the pay isn't as high because the cost of living is lower, but that doesn't mean you treat people like crap when they are making you filthy rich just because "everbody does it".

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#82

Post by aimatt »

Vivtek wrote: post #79
deelowe wrote: post #53

This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. You know how I know this article is trash? This statement right here: "It also appears that windows have had bars put over t…

what's with this fixation on Foxconn and Apple? Apple is the most successful business in history. They have literally billions of dollars in the bank. The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions is dissonant with the glowing opinion of them in the American press. It is seen as hypocritical. From your tone, I infer that you think you may agree - but that you feel conflict…

I think he is trying to say that what this journalist is getting paid could be better or worse than other factories, but there's no way to tell reading this article. The author expects the reader to compare it to dollars as stated with the $4 wage. How many Yuan is that, and how many Yuan is a good living over there? I have a friend living in Shenzhen and he gets by on like $0.25 a day, living like a westerner.

And of course you are going to get reprimanded if you don't do your job correctly, e.g. too much oil or inaccurate placement. And of course a new employee won't be good at it at first.

Personally, the most atrocious thing I've read in the whole article is that dirty sheets is commonplace. And frankly, that is common in China.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#83

Post by jonknee »

knwang wrote: post #69
jonknee wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not Chinese, but the "journalist" as you say is. This wasn't a Western hit piece.

just want to point out that merely "being Chinese" does not make the journalist as qualified as you may think. Think it like some journalist in NYC working for a major media company goes to some manufacturing plant in the Midwest, finding people are doing hard work under not good enough conditions. And that'll give some perspectives.

The OP made a big deal about how it's different in China so we can't compare directly. My point is that this is a Chinese national who lives in China and has actually worked at the plant. Regardless of journalistic pedigree, the writer is vastly more capable of writing an honest story from the Chinese perspective than a Western journalist or the OP.

A NY Times reporter covering poor working conditions in a meat packing plant in the Midwest is also a story worth reading. It happens, sometimes it changes when it's exposed, but almost never changes without exposure. An American reporting on bad American working conditions is more impactful than a Chinese reporter reporting on poor American conditions and the reverse is also true.

Upton Sinclair was able to change things with his work on The Jungle. I don't see this as being a lot different.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#84

Post by deelowe »

Vivtek wrote: post #79
deelowe wrote: post #53

This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. You know how I know this article is trash? This statement right here: "It also appears that windows have had bars put over t…

what's with this fixation on Foxconn and Apple? Apple is the most successful business in history. They have literally billions of dollars in the bank. The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions is dissonant with the glowing opinion of them in the American press. It is seen as hypocritical. From your tone, I infer that you think you may agree - but that you feel conflict…

Injustice means one thing for me and another for someone living in China. I have no idea what the standard of living is over there for a typical factory worker. Is it better or worse than the alternatives? I don't know. Foxconn could be a pioneer of beter living and working conditions for the country and I'd never know it. I'm biased towards a first world view on these matters. Everything must be considered when doing these types of comparisons, but there is no comparison here, just an editorial on how deplorable working conditions are. Again, at Foxconn in China. I assume Foxconn factories aren't this way in other countries with better labor laws.

My stance is that this is an issue the government needs to resolve. It's unreasonable to expect Apple or Foxconn to do anything about this on their own accord. I doubt they are behaving any differently than any other company with manufacturing operations over there. There's no need to crucify Apple or Foxconn over this.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#85

Post by deelowe »

mcantelon wrote: post #68
deelowe wrote: post #53

This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. You know how I know this article is trash? This statement right here: "It also appears that windows have had bars put over t…

>This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. Did you actually read the article? A Chinese journalist reporting in Chinese media would indicate that Foxconn's conditions…

I did and I didn't see anything that provided comparison with conditions in other Chinese factories. I have no way to know what's typical and what's not.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#86

Post by fastball »

aimatt wrote: post #82
Vivtek wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what's with this fixation on Foxconn and Apple? Apple is the most successful business in history. They have literally billions of dollars in the bank. The fact that they have reached this position by exploiting international labor conditions is dissonant with the glowing opinion of them in the American press. It is seen as hypocritical. From your tone, I infer that you think you may agree - but that you feel conflict…

I think he is trying to say that what this journalist is getting paid could be better or worse than other factories, but there's no way to tell reading this article. The author expects the reader to compare it to dollars as stated with the $4 wage. How many Yuan is that, and how many Yuan is a good living over there? I have a friend living in Shenzhen and he gets by on like $0.25 a day, living like a westerner. And o…

Right, and Vivtek's point was that it doesn't matter if Foxconn has better working conditions than other factories in China. Lesser of two evils is still an evil.

deelowe seems to have the "if someone's gonna do it, it might as well be us" mentality; as if it was morally ok to exploit labour in China just because China does that to itself.

What we should be looking at is the Purchasing Power Parity. If the Chinese factory workers can afford much less than American factory workers, we should try to make it more fair.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#87

Post by deelowe »

bkmartin wrote: post #81
deelowe wrote: post #53

This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. You know how I know this article is trash? This statement right here: "It also appears that windows have had bars put over t…

Your statement is like looking at steel mill conditions in the early 1900's in Pittsburgh and the people on wall street saying... "Well, why are they pissed? Its not like its slavery." Just because other Chinese working conditions suck doesn't mean that its right. Yeah, so maybe the pay isn't as high because the cost of living is lower, but that doesn't mean you treat people like crap when they are making you filthy…

No, it's like looking at a steel mill in the 1900's and pointing the finger at our government to do something about it. Which we did and it got fixed. Resolution didn't come from journalists going around bashing all the companies that purchased US steel. Resolution came from the government enacting better labor laws.

Also, it wasn't just steel. It was steel, oil, coal and many other industries. Which, I'd argue is the same issue in China.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#88

Post by SeanDav »

deelowe wrote: post #53

This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. You know how I know this article is trash? This statement right here: "It also appears that windows have had bars put over t…

and what is/was wrong with slavery, after all every one was doing it and probably slaves on plantations had better living conditions than the people they came from living in the bush...

Don't blame the poor plantation owners, they are just doing the same thing as all the others....

Sheesh, until now I never realized it was possible to have your head so far up your ass it ended up buried in the sand...

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#89

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

peterwwillis wrote: post #49
Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #24

Anyone who has significant issues with this needs to stop buying anything marked made in China. There are some interesting bits in there from the perspective of understanding the manufacturing process, but in terms of the worker conditions and so on, it's nothing new and anyone for whom this is news has presumably been hiding under a rock for the last couple of years and making a concious effort not to think about ho…

So your philosophy is to ignore the things you don't like? That may help you sleep better at night, but the world doesn't stop turning when you close your eyes. IMHO a better philosophy is accept the hypocrisy of willful indifference or try to make a difference. I don't find willful indifference to be 'action'.

I have no need for such mental gymnastics to sleep at night - I have small children, I could commit murder and I'm tired enough that it wouldn't be a problem at least as far as sleep was concerned.

I'm not indifferent, I'm just pointing out that viewing this as an Apple / Foxconn problem misses the point, and that most action based on that view will be ineffective and possibly even counter productive.

Journalists piggy back these stories on Apple because that shifts papers or gets clicks. That's fine as it raises the issue and puts pressure on companies to improve things (which seems to be happening).

As a result of this Apple are probably the most scrutinised company in China and are likely at the better end of things when it comes to how workers are treated. What does boycotting them and giving your business to a less scrutinised company really achieve?

The point is if you're going to use this as part of your buying decision, then assess it properly and apply the same standards to all the products and companies you are considering.

As for my position, I'm not sure what this wilful indifference really is.

My position is that other than monitoring the situation and revising my views as things change (for the better or worse), any significant action I might take would inconvenience me in a manner disproportionate to the impact it might have and that effort would be better invested elsewhere.

Re: Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn

#90

Post by AndyNemmity »

sjwright wrote: post #77
aneth4 wrote: post #70

A few things to note: - The job was taken voluntarily - The employee can resign at any time - The pay is not horrible. $2/hr for overtime is very high for China, and much higher than could be made at most jobs outside of professional occupations in major cities. Working in a factory in China is not a glorious undertaking, but it is not (in this case) slave labor nor is it unethical. The author suggests robots could d…

This. And besides, isn't Apple something like 0.001% of Chinese manufacturing output? Apple isn't the problem; if anything Apple may well be the strongest force for positive change at Foxconn.

And Apple is the strongest force for positive change at Foxconn because of articles like this.
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