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Are OpenAI and Anthropic losing money on inference?

martinalderson.com

491–495 of 495 posts

Re: Are OpenAI and Anthropic losing money on inference?

#491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google and Facebook had negative free cash flow for years early in their lives. All the good investors were lolling at the bad investors lolling at the cash they were burning.

Ok and lets compare the cost of running those products and reinvestment vs the model businesses. FCFF = EBIT(1-t)-Reinvestment. The operating expenses of the model business are much higher - so lower EBIT. The larger the reinvestment the larger the hole. And the longer it continues (without clear steep barriers to entry to exclude competitors in the long run) it becomes harder to justify a high valuation. I really di…

One can explain the equation all they like - the fact is that negative free cash flow is just a reality of the early stages of some very, very good businesses.

In the 90's and early 2000s, but people laughed at businesses like Amazon & Google for years. These types of people highly focused on the free cash flow of a business in it's early years are just dumb. Sometimes a business takes a lot of investment in the early stages - whether it's capex for data centers or S&M for enterprise software businesses, or R&D for pharma businesses or whatever.

As for "clear steep barriers" - again, just clueless stuff. There weren't clear steep barriers to search when Google started, there were dozens of search engines. Google created them. Creating barriers to entry is expensive and the "FCFF people" imagine they arrive out of thin air. It takes a lot of time and or money to create them.

It's unclear if "the model business" is going to be high or low margin. It's unclear how high the barriers to entry for making models will be in practice. It's unclear what the reinvestment required will be. We are a few years into it. About the only thing that is clear is this: if you try to run a positive free cashflow business in this space over the next few years, you'll be crushed. If you want a shot at a large, high return on capital business come 2035, you better be willing to spend up now.

Re: Are OpenAI and Anthropic losing money on inference?

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok and lets compare the cost of running those products and reinvestment vs the model businesses. FCFF = EBIT(1-t)-Reinvestment. The operating expenses of the model business are much higher - so lower EBIT. The larger the reinvestment the larger the hole. And the longer it continues (without clear steep barriers to entry to exclude competitors in the long run) it becomes harder to justify a high valuation. I really di…

One can explain the equation all they like - the fact is that negative free cash flow is just a reality of the early stages of some very, very good businesses. In the 90's and early 2000s, but people laughed at businesses like Amazon & Google for years. These types of people highly focused on the free cash flow of a business in it's early years are just dumb. Sometimes a business takes a lot of investment in the earl…

I can tell you have zero clue about how to do proper valuation of common stock.

Re: Are OpenAI and Anthropic losing money on inference?

#493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One can explain the equation all they like - the fact is that negative free cash flow is just a reality of the early stages of some very, very good businesses. In the 90's and early 2000s, but people laughed at businesses like Amazon & Google for years. These types of people highly focused on the free cash flow of a business in it's early years are just dumb. Sometimes a business takes a lot of investment in the earl…

I can tell you have zero clue about how to do proper valuation of common stock.

There is not a single thing in there which is counter to valuing a stock. Anyone with half a brain knows large free cash in the future can more than make up for negative free cash flow in the early years. You can't point to a single thing, you are just hand waving.

Re: Are OpenAI and Anthropic losing money on inference?

#494
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most AI companies are losing money right now which is completely "normal" at this point, """right"""? if you have billions of VC money chasing returns there's no time to sit around, it's all in, the hype train doesn't wait for bootstrapping profitability. and of course with these gargantuan valuations and mandatory YoY growth numbers, there is no way they are not fucking with the unit economy numbers too. (biases a…

Does the cost of good come down 10x or not? For say Uber it didn’t, so we went from great $6 VC funded product to mediocre $24 ride product we have today. I’m not sure I’m going to use Copilot at $1 per request. Or even $0.25. Starts to approach overseas consultant in price and ability.

well, Uber always faced the obvious problem of scaling (even after level 42 self-driving, because it's not possible to serve local demand with global supply, plus all the regulatory compliance issues - which they initially "conveniently" sidestepped by being bold/criminal, but cities are not going to play dumb forever)

of course these chat-AIs also started by "well maybe it's fair use", but at least the scaling problem seems easier than for taxi services

Re: Are OpenAI and Anthropic losing money on inference?

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm more "capitalism good" (8 billion people on earth, 7 billion can read, 5 billion have internet, and almost no one dies in childbirth anymore in rich countries, which is several billion people), but that is really interesting that he has no stock and just gets salary. I guess if other people buying stock in your company is what enables you to have a super high salary (+ benefits like company plane, etc), you are s…

Again incorrect. He doesn’t have a super high salary.

thanks for pointing it out ^_^
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