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Are we decentralized yet?

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271–280 of 292 posts

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Convince a HN user that a corporation with the ability to cut you off from your feed sources for more profit won't do exactly that It's not just a technical restriction though. It's also a legal restriction. Bluesky PBLLC is a public benefit corporation and they are at least in moderate part beholden to their charter. More importantly, their initial investment contract requires them to further the decentralisation…

OpenAI managed to escape its nonprofit status, becoming incredibly closed and self-serving. There's no reason to expect any other VC-funded nonprofit won't do the same.

Sure they may. And the moment they try to it'll signal to the entire ecosystem what is coming, giving us time to migrate people off to third parties and batten down the hatches. A change like that never happens overnight.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This achieves your goal, doesn't it? Running a server isn't practical for average people. It's also nothing new, people could do since the dawn of the Internet, they don't need a Fediverse for that. > You can freely move between the islands. I can freely move between Facebook and Twitter too. Again, not seeing what the Fediverse is doing here for me. The Fediverse does not prevent walled gardens, the federation is…

> If Mastodon decides There is not entity "Mastodon" that could decide anything. It's like saying "if the Internet decides to show you ads". It's a meaningless phrase. > there is no way to export my comments in the UI It's just a technical, UI problem, which anybody can solve, as it's free software. > Running a server isn't practical for average people. This is not the point. Like with repairs, you don't have to know…

> There is not entity "Mastodon" that could decide anything.

mastodon.social is a server, if you have an account on there, they can delete it. If you don't have an account there, they can still block you by defederating whatever server you are on. This is no different from Twitter and Co. Simply put, look at this from an angle when it goes wrong, not when they go right.

> It's just a technical, UI problem, which anybody can solve, as it's free software.

No, that's a fundamental problem with how the data is organized and distributed. Without cryptographic signatures and unique message-ids, you are slave to the server, even if you get the data out of the server, there is no way to get it up on another. To see how broken the situation is just look at the URLs:

- https://feddit.org/post/18147843 - https://lemmy.zip/post/47572103

Can you tell that both are referring to the same post? Can you find the feddit.org post on lemmy.zip when feddit.org goes down? This is not a simple "we'll implement that later"-feature, but a fundamental oversight in how data and control gets handled in the Fediverse. That it violates European law, that explicitly exists to empower the user, ain't helping.

> This is why you need free software btw

Free Software is completely irrelevant here. This is about protocols, data ownership and control, areas that no Free Software license even touches on. It's somewhat ironic that GDPR got there first with actual law, while the Free Software world still completely fails to address those issues, despite them being around for 20 years.

> You can pay anybody in the free market to do your repairs or set up a Mastodon (or web) server for you.

Which is worthless, since the value is in the users and their connections, which are under the control of whoever is running the popular instances, not me.

> You can't freely move between them.

I can freely switch between facebook.com or x.com in my browser just fine.

> Once you leave them, you loose all your followers and specific features.

Yes, that's just the same on the Fediverse. When feddit.de went down, where did my data go? My feddit.de account doesn't work on other servers. feddit.org was recreated from scratch and everybody had to move over manually. Account migration requires two cooperating servers, which you don't have if one of them is down permanently.

> This is not even funny. Twitter promotes nazi content according to the latest investigations.

As said "On the Fediverse thought-policing is getting sold as a feature."

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#273
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What even is "moderation" at this point? I'm not sure this word is used as defined on paper dictionaries. It is a codeword for something else, like censorship or influencing or artificial control of public opinion? Because, if it's purely about filtering out content not desired by users , it could be nearly trivially done at the edge, automatic and completely de-humanized, and the word as appearing lately doesn't rea…

I get where you're coming from, and I have largely the same sentiment, but it's obvious that you've never had any experience running a platform, or using one with no/few rules. You need baseline moderation, even if it isn't super ideological. You've got to keep pedophiles and misanthropes out at the very least.

Sounds like I really should be building one with the AI moderation I have in mind. I kind of have been to random deep ends. Most of them can't be that hard to filter out or steer them away from undesired content, especially in this age of AI...

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick meaning it's short term from when it starts. The time before it starts doesn't factor in.

A quick buck would be the time from when you put your money in to when you get back your money and a profit.

If you have a sudden massive change in plans like this, it resets the timer. You were doing long term, but now you want a quick buck and you don't care much if the company survives.

If I set up a get rich quick scheme based on overhyping and selling land, it doesn't matter whether I buy the land today or it's land I had for decades for a completely different reason. Either way I'm going for a quick buck now.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Mastodon decides There is not entity "Mastodon" that could decide anything. It's like saying "if the Internet decides to show you ads". It's a meaningless phrase. > there is no way to export my comments in the UI It's just a technical, UI problem, which anybody can solve, as it's free software. > Running a server isn't practical for average people. This is not the point. Like with repairs, you don't have to know…

> There is not entity "Mastodon" that could decide anything. mastodon.social is a server, if you have an account on there, they can delete it. If you don't have an account there, they can still block you by defederating whatever server you are on. This is no different from Twitter and Co. Simply put, look at this from an angle when it goes wrong, not when they go right. > It's just a technical, UI problem, which anyb…

mastodon isn't mastodon.social, and you also want to be thought policed unless you want to view child porn every time you log in (there are mastodon servers for pedophiles to share child porn)

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenAI managed to escape its nonprofit status, becoming incredibly closed and self-serving. There's no reason to expect any other VC-funded nonprofit won't do the same.

Sure they may. And the moment they try to it'll signal to the entire ecosystem what is coming, giving us time to migrate people off to third parties and batten down the hatches. A change like that never happens overnight.

Why didn't everyone abandon Twitter for Mastodon when Elon bought it? Why didn't they even abandon it for Blue Sky until years later? Why is Twitter still as busy as it was when Elon took it over?

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#277
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] It's technically possible for people to use alternative services, but the community would have to wrestle the majority control of the network away from Bluesky Social PBC for it to really matter. [...] > [...] now you just have the same split world that exists in the Fediverse, but with AppViews/moderation services. It kinda seems like the "shared picture of the world" concept is actually somewhat incompatibl…

> I'm personally one of the largest critics of how Bluesky Social PBC treat Japanese anime-style illustrators, so I share your frustration here. Though it's worth noting that large Mastodon instances do the same kind of moderation. Trying to follow illustrators on misskey.io from mastodon.social is very much a toin coss if they're censored or not. I can't stress this enough: I don't find it acceptable to ban people i…

> I can't stress this enough: I don't find it acceptable to ban people if they like posts or follow someone who gets banned.

To the best of my knowledge, that kind of banning has only happened once[1] (I was one of the handful caught up in it lol). They reversed that ban when I complained. Unless you were banned at that exact time, what likely happened to you is that some kind of anti-spam filter thought you were a suspicious new account, agnostic of the content of the posts/accounts.

> I hate that everybody is just going to let this happen, and I hate that Bluesky proponents jump in and try their hardest to make it seem like there's hope for things to not be controlled by one entity. There isn't. It's a complete load of shit.

There already are other apps working independently from all of Bluesky's infrastructure (save for plc.directory). I think the big thing holding the protocol back is that they have not implemented private data yet (and it's probably a couple years off). Lots of apps need that, so many apps would not want to use the protocol yet.

I'm hopeful about the future of the protocol, because it does provide the aspect of decentralization I value most: your account is a signed repo and a private key (or several), and the network is necessarily fully open for any app to make use of however they want. Even client-side single-page web apps are feasible with generic backlink services (Constellation), which I find super cool. All that is needed now is time and app development.

[1] https://bsky.app/profile/safety.bsky.app/post/3lbsqm7kfns23

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#278
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't correct. Mastodon merged fetch-all-replies in March. https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/32615 The only difference in visible replies is in the moderation choices of the server the post is viewed from.

Yes but it's off by default for a reason, it's not realistic to expect every node to fetch all messages. This is a catch 22 because the reason fedi is more decentralized is because of the low barrier of entry to run a node, but at the same time that low barrier means it takes less resources because it does not fetch every single message and piece of media.

It's currently on on the flagship instance and will be on by default in the upcoming 4.5 release.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#279
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm personally one of the largest critics of how Bluesky Social PBC treat Japanese anime-style illustrators, so I share your frustration here. Though it's worth noting that large Mastodon instances do the same kind of moderation. Trying to follow illustrators on misskey.io from mastodon.social is very much a toin coss if they're censored or not. I can't stress this enough: I don't find it acceptable to ban people i…

> I can't stress this enough: I don't find it acceptable to ban people if they like posts or follow someone who gets banned. To the best of my knowledge, that kind of banning has only happened once[1] (I was one of the handful caught up in it lol). They reversed that ban when I complained. Unless you were banned at that exact time, what likely happened to you is that some kind of anti-spam filter thought you were a s…

> To the best of my knowledge, that kind of banning has only happened once[1] (I was one of the handful caught up in it lol). They reversed that ban when I complained. Unless you were banned at that exact time, what likely happened to you is that some kind of anti-spam filter thought you were a suspicious new account, agnostic of the content of the posts/accounts.

It was definitely around the time of that post. Here's the message I got around 10 months ago:

> Recently, we removed a Bluesky account you control for violations of our guidelines. After a thorough review, we have determined that the takedown action applied to your account was incorrect.

What struck me about this series of posts is how they still never acknowledged exactly what they did (which is, took down accounts using guilt-by-association) nor did they claim they wouldn't do it again, only that they made mistakes while doing it, and they didn't even bother to properly apologize for banning people incorrectly at any point. It reads as if they felt it was all fine and justified and that they will do it again, just, correctly this time, as if there is a right way to do that.

Even if they did stop this practice (again I truly doubt it), there are things you can do that, while they may feel reasonable and justifiable given the circumstances, are a permanent way to lose people's trust. For me this is one of them. I don't think anyone should feel safe hitting like on a post on Bluesky, unless you're absolutely sure it could never be found in violation of any rules. That's insane. Why would I want to be on any network controlled by Bluesky Social PDS when that's how they run it?

> There already are other apps working independently from all of Bluesky's infrastructure (save for plc.directory). I think the big thing holding the protocol back is that they have not implemented private data yet (and it's probably a couple years off). Lots of apps need that, so many apps would not want to use the protocol yet.

> I'm hopeful about the future of the protocol, because it does provide the aspect of decentralization I value most: your account is a signed repo and a private key (or several), and the network is necessarily fully open for any app to make use of however they want. Even client-side single-page web apps are feasible with generic backlink services (Constellation), which I find super cool. All that is needed now is time and app development.

I'm beyond bummed out because I was actually pretty excited for Bluesky early on, but I think they had a window that opened and closed for properly decentralizing. Bluesky today is a heavily curated and heavily moderated network that resembles absolutely nothing of what you would expect from a supposedly "decentralized" network, which is a load of shit for something whose entire draw was that in the first place. What they've created today is so centralized that they can feasibly close it off tomorrow without any impact on 99.9% of users. It's one thing to extol the virtues of its architecture, but that architecture hasn't really been proven to work well in a truly decentralized environment, which is not good when it has already been scaled to these heights. I don't just mean in terms of continuing to function and scale well, I mean in terms of how the network handles abuse and bad actors, and how Bluesky Social PBC will handle parts of the network that don't agree with their moderation policies. (i.e. Was it really wrong to spend so much time highlighting the issues with inconsistency in the Fediverse if ATProto winds up with the exact same issues where the world appears very different depending on what AppView you're on?)

While I admire Dan Abramov's work on React, his attempts to show that Bluesky decentralization is actually happening were to list two alternative AppViews, except apparently, one of them was actually not a full AppView instance. So actually, there is basically one known alternative AppView to Bluesky's AppView. Bluesky has something north of 38 million users, and approaching-100% of them are going to be using Bluesky's AppView. Given the utter lack of incentives to really run an alternative AppView, and the fact that nobody except complete and utter nerds will ever even find them, is there really any good reason to suspect that there will be any alternative AppViews in the long run, or if they exist, that any more than a tiny unimportant fraction of users will ever use them?

The Fediverse has had instances that have done dumb things, but the thing is, you can currently today actually choose any instance you want. A future where you can use Bluesky without the direct influence or control from Bluesky Social PDS in either your personal affairs or even just almost every single interaction you'll ever have is very distant. If we were to extrapolate, it doesn't seem likely the situation will have meaningfully changed in several years. I'd be willing to place bets that in 10 years at least 99% of users will still be on Bluesky Social PBC's main AppView. (To be honest, I wonder if anyone would actually be willing to place money on this bet. I kinda suspect even Bluesky proponents would admit that this is pretty likely.)

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they may. And the moment they try to it'll signal to the entire ecosystem what is coming, giving us time to migrate people off to third parties and batten down the hatches. A change like that never happens overnight.

Why didn't everyone abandon Twitter for Mastodon when Elon bought it? Why didn't they even abandon it for Blue Sky until years later? Why is Twitter still as busy as it was when Elon took it over?

Because it requires a new account. Migrating PDS on bluesky does not require a new account, is invisible/transparent to your followers and following, and the end goal is that migration will be easy enough that you can do it in less than 5 minutes with no technical skill.

Bluesky/atproto is still very early/very young but the general theme is to focus on the UX and ergonomics to make decentralisation viable without forcing the user to be technical enough to care about it.

i.e. The end goal is that people should be able to say "fuck bluesky", click a button, wait for a loading bar to finish, and continue using bluesky without using bluesky PBLLC stuff.

To be clear we are not at this point yet and bluesky PBLLC is not suddenly hostile yet either. Triage is in order of priorities so some more important UX aspects are being handled first.

My personal prediction is that this should be a solved problem within less than a year but of course we'll see.

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