Forgive the disposable account, I am a long-time registered user with high karma but even I think that once in a while there is a topic that requires anonymity (or at least further pseudonymity). I do not feel I suffer from depression, yet I think of suicide frequently. Frequently as in, once every couple of days to several times a day, for as long as I remember. Frequently these are just passing thoughts, of how I m…
Depression lies
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Re: Depression lies
#62The words of epictetus and marcus aurelius made a difference for me.
I've also saw a therapist for cognitive therapy at that time and I've found that reading the stoics helped me with the therapy.
But: It is not an alternative for seeking profession help and I'm just a single biased data-point.
Re: Depression lies
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
True. It took a few years between accepting that I had a problem and finding a solution to it. For many people, it takes a lot longer; some never "solve" their problem at all. But knowing is a necessary first step, and for me, it was the hardest and the one that would have benefited most from posts like this.
What was your solution, if you don't mind sharing?
With that disclaimer, I'll say that I went on several regimens of drugs for a few years. They had serious side effects, didn't work or worked only for a few months. They did keep me afloat long enough to get the rest of my life together.
Stephen Ilardi's "The Depression Cure" is 80% insipid self-help; I'm surprised I didn't throw it away in disgust. The remaining 20% (which is mostly the table of contents) had a profoundly positive effect. It did more good than all the drugs I'd taken combined; but I had to take it seriously and have the willpower to make changes.
In the end, CBT techniques got me to the point where I instinctively revise my thought patterns. Combined with a lifestyle that includes a lot more exercise, time outside, and physical contact with people I care about, I have been un-medicated for almost three years and haven't had a single major depressive episode.
Re: Depression lies
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does it really work? My guess is that's just how slim people tell fat people that laziness got them fat and so they should do more exercise, i.e. people that never suffered from a certain condition giving advice to people suffering from that condition. " I failed the test because I'm stupid " - that's just how I felt when I got rejected after an onsite interview with a certain company that's renowned for its hiring s…
Studies have shown the two to have the same effectiveness rate at treating depression, around 50%. It turns out it is actually healthy to pass the blame. I'd suggest reading one of Seligman's other books, Learned Optimism, for more, but in studies of people in high-pressure situations (freshman year at Army, cold call insurance salesman at MetLife, etc), the most successful people are the ones who externalize (blame…
Rather, I've always heard that it's best to think in terms of circumstances and not blame, for both yourself and others. There's a subtle difference between them. You've phrased it as "blame others, not yourself", but both of those alternatives are equally unhealthy.
Rather, you should figure out a variety of possible explanations for your low performance, and then ascribe meaning to the ones you can change and forget about the ones you can't. "I failed the test because I'm stupid" is a completely useless conclusion. So is "the teacher was in a bad mood". "I didn't study", however, is a very useful conclusion, because it suggests what you should do next time: study harder. So is "I don't actually like physics", because it also suggests a course of action: switch your major.
The overall point is to get out of the habit of learned helplessness and take responsibility for your own life. Blaming others doesn't accomplish that, because you've still attributed outcomes to things you can't control.
Re: Depression lies
#65Forgive the disposable account, I am a long-time registered user with high karma but even I think that once in a while there is a topic that requires anonymity (or at least further pseudonymity). I do not feel I suffer from depression, yet I think of suicide frequently. Frequently as in, once every couple of days to several times a day, for as long as I remember. Frequently these are just passing thoughts, of how I m…
Re: Depression lies
#66Re: Depression lies
#67I'd also recommend reading psychologist Martin Seligman's book "What You Can Change and What You Can't", which covers a variety of mental health issues from sexual fetishes to fear of spiders to schizophrenia, and the treatment options available for each. Cognitive behavioral therapy teaches people to recognize negative thoughts ("I failed the test because I'm stupid"), dispute the thought ("If I'm stupid, how did I…
Does it really work? My guess is that's just how slim people tell fat people that laziness got them fat and so they should do more exercise, i.e. people that never suffered from a certain condition giving advice to people suffering from that condition. " I failed the test because I'm stupid " - that's just how I felt when I got rejected after an onsite interview with a certain company that's renowned for its hiring s…
I'm not sure if I understand your objections to CBT -- there's a lot of them -- so let me restate them. If I've misunderstood please correct me. You seem to be saying:
1) One can control one's highest-level, "executive" thoughts, but not feelings. CBT is assuming far too much control over emotions, and it's like blaming a depressed person for not "snapping out of it".
2) It is also bad to throw off blame onto other people when you should be learning lessons about your own failures.
Okay, first of all, I think you are quite mistaken about how much your emotions are related to the content of your thoughts. There are indeed people who have chemical imbalances in their mind, but for most people, their thoughts are the primary trigger of their emotions.
The basic assumption of CBT is not that you should blame others more, or yourself more. The assumption is that your thinking is clouded somehow and needs to be set straight. This is usually done by rigorously stepping through every part of the thought process to reveal the errors. One should accept the blame that is due oneself, but not go any further.
I never followed a program of cognitive-behavioral therapy all the way, but I have done it sometimes. I do remember a moment of revelation that occurred when I was out for a walk. CBT encourages you to slow down and listen to yourself very carefully. I noticed, for the first time, a voice in my head that was constantly leaping to very bad conclusions based on poor evidence (e.g. very minor setbacks, like an untied shoe, are connected into a pattern of lifelong failure). The thoughts were so automatic I had stopped realizing that they were thoughts at all; I only felt the wave of bad feelings that resulted from them.
My personal feeling is that a lot of people have this sort of problem, rather than any chemical imbalance. Antidepressants may be primarily useful in lifting the fog enough for one to have the mental energy to start CBT. Some studies show that using both is better than either alone.
Re: Depression lies
#68I'd also recommend reading psychologist Martin Seligman's book "What You Can Change and What You Can't", which covers a variety of mental health issues from sexual fetishes to fear of spiders to schizophrenia, and the treatment options available for each. Cognitive behavioral therapy teaches people to recognize negative thoughts ("I failed the test because I'm stupid"), dispute the thought ("If I'm stupid, how did I…
Does it really work? My guess is that's just how slim people tell fat people that laziness got them fat and so they should do more exercise, i.e. people that never suffered from a certain condition giving advice to people suffering from that condition. " I failed the test because I'm stupid " - that's just how I felt when I got rejected after an onsite interview with a certain company that's renowned for its hiring s…
It is not so much someone "slim" berating a fat person; therapists actually don't tell you what to do or think and they never judge you. In CBT they interact with you a little more than in psychoanalysis but you never get told "that's just because you are lazy!"... but you would discover e.g. you are (ab)using food as an escape mechanism to counter fear, anxiety or depression. By knowing that, you already have your finger on a harmful behavior you might not have understood before and then you can do something against it. But it all comes 80-90% from you, the patient. The therapist helps you understand what's going on, they can frame or re-frame situations for you, give you a different insight or share stories of other patients in similar situations. Often, the real problems are things, thought patterns which have been with you your whole life and typically were established when you were a child; you aren't even aware of them, they have always felt and come natural to you. You just end up feeling bad, afraid or depressed but all the behavior and patterns ultimately leading to that feel normal and "right", natural.
And at the very least, the fact you are talking about your problems and there is someone who actively listens can be beneficial.
Also, no, this is NOT something "a friend would just do for you", no matter how much it might seem like that at first. I made the mistake to listen, to show empathy to a severely depressed and suicidal friend and it caused a chain-reaction in my own mind to the point where I now firmly and consciously tell myself that I will never ever do that again for anyone. Not because empathy for friends was wrong in any way but because in a very selfish, very self-preserving way I do not want to bleed energy and thoughts into a black hole and when people who are so close to the edge ever open up then that's what they are... they cannot help it. But you best let an expert deal with it, it will be much better for you and the person suffering. I know this sounds terrible and cold but I think it is for the best for everyone involved. Be there for the one suffering but don't attempt to be an armchair-therapist to them, don't become their dump for all their negative emotions and problems. It WILL overwhelm you and will show you a side of life and the human mind that you cannot un-see.
Re: Depression lies
#69I'd also recommend reading psychologist Martin Seligman's book "What You Can Change and What You Can't", which covers a variety of mental health issues from sexual fetishes to fear of spiders to schizophrenia, and the treatment options available for each. Cognitive behavioral therapy teaches people to recognize negative thoughts ("I failed the test because I'm stupid"), dispute the thought ("If I'm stupid, how did I…
Does it really work? My guess is that's just how slim people tell fat people that laziness got them fat and so they should do more exercise, i.e. people that never suffered from a certain condition giving advice to people suffering from that condition. " I failed the test because I'm stupid " - that's just how I felt when I got rejected after an onsite interview with a certain company that's renowned for its hiring s…
Statistically, CBT combined with medication is currently the most effective clinical treatment for depression. Personally, having tried a number of sessions, I think it works very well for some, and not so well for others. If your tendency is to blame yourself for things that are beyond your control, it may be a great aid. If instead you want to understand the world so as to make it better, CBT probably isn't a good choice.
I'm seeing people throw blame all the time, precisely because it's easier to cope with failure.
See, you've already got it. Stop there.
But it's not healthy to pass the blame,
Why? The studies seem to show that for most any measure of 'health', it is better not to blame yourself for the mistakes you make. You'll be happier, and live longer. You (and I) might wish that taking personal responsibility would always be the better choice, but statistically it's often not.
My conclusion was that CBT is effective to the extent that you are willing to give up on the concept of truth. People who train themselves to see only the positive are happier than those that insist on truth. I decided that truth was more important to me than happiness, dropped the CBT, and stuck with the meds.
Re: Depression lies
#70Until about 2 years ago I had a long period of heavy depression. At that time, thoughts about suicide did cross my mind often. This depression was partly caused due to a post traumatic stress syndrome. In his article Wil states that he wasn't very interested in using medicine and I shared the same thought. I did went to a shrink though and eventually we agreed that instead of medication I would go outside more, eat m…
From own experience, I can say this is nothing short of magic and voodoo but it does work.