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We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

hugotunius.se

351–360 of 1001 posts

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents are getting old and they aren't tech savvy. The missing piece here is that I want my parents to have a computer they can safely do their banking on, without leaving them vulnerable to scams and viruses and the like. I like that they have iphones. Doing internet banking on their phone is safer than doing it on their desktop computer. Why is that? The reason is that the desktop PC security model is deeply fl…

Everything in life is about trade-offs. Certain trade-offs people aren't going to make. - If you want to run an alternative operating system, you got to learn how it works. That is a trade off not even many tech savvy people want to make. - There is a trade-off with a desktop OS. I actually like the fact that it isn't super sand-boxed and locked down. I am willing to trade security & safety for control. > Personally…

exactly, people want all the benefit without the consequences

like if there are OS utopia exist that has all the advantage without the downside then everybody would use that

but people complaining don't live in reality

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#352
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not give people the freedom to choose what they want

It will be exploited. Key word above - not tech savvy. The only reason we have convenient banking, gov and streaming apps today is because of guaranteed and enforced mobile security by big boys Apple and Google. (Google being Ad company is another matter, not relevant here).

All of these existed well before mobile phones and so called "enforced security". Almost all these apps are wrappers around web functionality.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#353
This ist what the four essential freedoms are all about.

The hardware aspect is quite irrelevant to the whole point: the hardware only runs with software that does not respect your freedom and there's no feasible way to make the hardware run software that does respect our freedom. And of course our banks and streaming services and whatever else we need also don't offer us any software that respect our freedoms. So no, it's not about hardware, it's about free software. Always has been.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well no, if your parents truly are tech illiterate, I would give them Ubuntu and not an iPhone. With the iPhone they get the risk of answering to a scam call or scam sms and giving them the access of their bank account. Ubuntu is almost bullet proof for beginners. In fact, that's what I've done for my parents and I had to retire the computer and get another one because it's the hardware which became too old after 15…

Like the parent said Ubuntu has horrible security. It would be better to just not buy a phone line for the iphone if you don't want phone calls or texts.

It hasn't, security isn't just technical features but a social contract.

Even on an iPhone without a sim card, they can download one of the scam casino games from the appstore and give away a lot of money, on Ubuntu they can't do that.

There's more to security than just bytes.

The threats to your average user isn't a bootloader exploit built by some Israeli firm but privacy breaches, social engineering and scams.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#355
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we need the second option to exist? The world is dangerous place. If you can't figure out a computer perhaps you're just unfit to participate in the modern economy. The existence of locked-down hardware eliminates the feasibility of open hardware through network effects. That is what is happening now.

You realize you’re discounting 98% of the world’s population, right?

I think that the majority of the population can figure out how to stop installing software from untrustworthy sources, seeing as that was pretty much the norm 20 years ago.

Everyone else can put on their loincloths and go back to living in flinstones-esque rock huts.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#356
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is the means of enforcement requires taking away other rights they shouldn't be able to. What if I want to require (for anti-piracy reasons) that to use my software you must also give me complete access to your computer, all the data on it, and all your communications. You might say, "Well, if anyone is stupid enough to make that deal, let them." But it's easy to sugar coat what you're doing, especially wit…

Forgive me, but is Netflix asking for that? As I understand it, Netflix wishes to authenticate the device, and DRM their content. I'm not aware of anything beyond that (but I'm also not paying attention. ) Now you may have used the example of what might happen, but then Netfix seems a strange example. Surely Apple and/or Google are more likely players in that example?

> Now you may have used the example of what might happen,

OP said "What if", it's clearly a hypothetical scenario and not something Netflix is doing or planning to do

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#357
post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

I'm going to get wild-eyed now but you can blame Google for that as they're the ones who just announced they'll retroactively ban me from installing software on the computer I bought and own.

I don't think you can really solve this problem as long as there's an operating system monopoly, or even duopoly/triopoly. The lure of total control is just too great. Every operating system vendor, hell every intellectual property vendor will always dream of it. A company that becomes powerful enough to put chains on its users will do so.

From the British Raj to Standard Oil to IBM and Microsoft, monopolies are some of the most powerful forces in history. There is a case to be made that we were on a similar path with Microsoft until a combination of the Internet and a half-assed but not completely ineffective anti-trust campaign made them hit the brakes, for a while.

I think that the solution is to highlight the abuses perpetrated by the biggest tech giants specifically, and advocate for radical government action on multiple levels. #1 to break up these companies. #2, to shackle them and anyone who gets as large as them so that they can't do anything like this again. #3, publicly fund the development of competing, open operating systems.

If you are a US citizen then #1 and #2 are the more realistic paths and you should be watching the various anti-trust cases against Big Tech like a hawk, the celebrity du jour is really Amit Mehta who is scheduled to release his Google remedies any day now. You need to make it clear to your representatives that this is your top issue at the ballot box. We need a second American Progressive Era that's seasoned with digital rights and anti-megacorp sentiment and with "doomscroll" and "Luigi" having entered the vernacular I think we could be closer than many here believe.

If you are an EU or Chinese citizen you should support the development and adoption in those polities of alternative, Linux-based operating systems. In the way the South Korean government specifically encouraged the growth of Samsung into a company with a global footprint, you should do that for local companies which develop OSes that compete with Apple and Google's. These geographies fundamentally can't do much to influence the American legal system so they should instead lean into public sentiment around nationalism and sovereignty and tie these to software freedom because that is likely the only elemental, emotional force that will capture enough public attention and support. Use state-scale resources to create competition for the American tech giants and establish a balance of power, because they are assuredly your enemies at this point.

And lastly for the ten millionth time I'll say it - Stallman predicted this. He saw it all coming. He warned us. He told us what would happen and what we needed to do. It's time to listen and to think big.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#358
post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

This is the crux of the matter. Maybe conceptually you will be able to run some kind of open operating system with your own code, but it will be unable to access software or services provided by corporate or governmental entities. This has been obvious for some time, and as soon as passkeys started popping up the endgame became clear. Pleading to the government definitely can't save us now though, because they want t…

> as soon as passkeys started popping up the endgame became clear

That's why I'm 100% against passkeys. I'll never use them and I'll make sure nobody I know does.

They're just a lock-in mechanism.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents are getting old and they aren't tech savvy. The missing piece here is that I want my parents to have a computer they can safely do their banking on, without leaving them vulnerable to scams and viruses and the like. I like that they have iphones. Doing internet banking on their phone is safer than doing it on their desktop computer. Why is that? The reason is that the desktop PC security model is deeply fl…

> think of the elderly This stuff is not just for the elderly and computer illiterate. It's for you as well. You think they're going to stop? You're giving up freedom for safety. You will have neither.

> It's for you as well. You think they're going to stop?

No! Which is why I don't want every npm package I install to have unfettered access to my internet connection and to access all my files. If this is being exploited now, I might not even know! How sloppy is that!

> You're giving up freedom for safety.

At the limit, sure, maybe there are tradeoffs between freedom and security. But there's lots of technical solutions that we could build right now that give a lot more safety without losing any freedom at all.

Like sandboxing applications by default. Applications should by default run on my computer with the same permissions as a browser tab. Occasionally applications need more access than that. But that should require explicit privilege escalation rather than being granted to all programs by default. (Why do I need to trust that spotify and davinci resolve won't install keyloggers on my computer? Our computers are so insecure!)

Personally I'd like to see all access to the OS happen through a capability model. This would require changes in the OS and in programming languages. But the upside is it would mean we could fearlessly install software. And if you do it right, even `npm install` could be entirely safe. Here's how we do it: First, all syscalls need to pass unforgable capability tokens. (Eg SeL4). No more "stringy" syscalls. For safe 3rd party dependencies, inside processes we first make an "application capability" that is passed to main(). 3rd party libraries don't get access to any OS objects at all by default. But - if you want to use a 3rd party library to do something (like talk to redis), your program crafts a capability token with access to that specific thing and then passes it to the library as an argument.

Bad:

    // Stringy API. Redis client can do anything.
    redisClient.connect("127.0.0.1", 6379)
Good:

    redisConnCap = systemCap.narrow(TCPConnect, "127.0.0.1", 6379)
    redisClient.connect(redisConnCap)
This way, the redis library can only make outgoing connections on the specified TCP port. Everything else - including the filesystem - is off limits to this library.

This would require some PL level changes too. Like, it wouldn't be secure if libraries can access arbitrary memory within your process. In a language like rust we'd need to limit unsafe code. (And maybe other stuff?). In GC languages like C# and javascript its easier - though we might need to tweak the standard libraries. And ban (or sandbox) native modules like napi and cgo.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#360
post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

There is also the possibility that without a [paid] curator (the vendor, like Google or Apple) we can't have security for how do we ascertain provenance? You might not buy that argument, but the vendor will make it, and it will resonate with the public and/or the politicians. Establishing trust with hardware, firmware, and operating system software is currently an intractable problem. Besides the halting problem and…

Not really. Many countries emit digital signatures that could be used to prove that someone signed something. We would just need to convince countries to use that same infra for companies. So it may be possible to require everything to be properly signed, without requiring everyone to be bound to certain company wishes.
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