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Are we decentralized yet?

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251–260 of 292 posts

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#251
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, to be honest, I'm surprised anyone runs a third-party Bluesky AppView even just as a curiosity. I genuinely can't understand why anyone would run one of these except as a raw curiosity. If 99% of the people are using the default AppView, the default relay, the default indexers, the default PDSes, etc, etc... that just means that everything that almost the entire userbase sees is completely controlled by one entit…

Having multiple implementations available is an important step towards decentralization, even if most people don’t use them yet. It shows that it’s technically feasible and will help shake out any bugs. Getting people to actually switch will be harder, and presumably it would involve both promoting the alternatives and adding features that some users will find attractive.

The issue is that Bluesky did their big public launch long before anyone could even run their own PDSes. Instead, they spent a bunch of time working on shit like integrating Namecheap for DIDs. And if you use Bluesky to go and create a DID and set up a domain for it... it will be a centralized DID managed by plc.directory, which is also ran by Bluesky Social PBC, and you can't run your own equivalent of plc.directory, and the alternative DID method that is still supported is used by basically nobody.

Technically people can run their own components for most things, but everyone just knows bsky.app. What's the point? You're never beating them in Google Search. You're never gaining critical mass. People are just going to be really confused at why there are multiple domains that have the same content, and I imagine search indexes will be confused by that, too, probably massively deranking any of the alternatives.

This all makes running your own Bluesky components pretty self-defeating. You can go through all of the effort to have parallel infrastructure for Bluesky, only for an AppView that is doomed to be irrelevant. 99.99% of everyone you interact with is on Bluesky Social PBC's centralized infrastructure anyways and there's basically no chance of that changing. And unlike Bluesky, you don't have shit loads of investor money to spend, certainly not the $15 million that Blockchain Capital invested in Bluesky Social PBC last year.

I think Bluesky Social PBC was well aware of all of this and chose to launch this way anyways, because they absolutely did not have decentralization as a priority. And yes, I know that users on Hacker News are screaming at the top of their lungs, "Users shouldn't care! Users shouldn't care!" But guess what, Users actually cared. People were pissed off about Twitter and wanted a durable alternative that wasn't plagued by the fact that someone could just buy it and take control over the whole platform. Bluesky Social PBC sold Bluesky as a better decentralized alternative to Twitter.

For all of this performative effort though, it's all worthless. Someone could buy Bluesky and immediately close all of the doors; stop allowing new external PDSes and start closing off access to relays/etc. from anyone else. There's not really any reason to actually do that right now, since decentralization is not even a threat to Bluesky Social PBC's control over the network, and unless someone shows up with millions of dollars to blow on a network they don't even have the benefit of being the public face of, they really never have to worry about it anyways.

I criticized a lot of aspects of the Fediverse for a long time, but at least the Fediverse actually delivered on one thing: it actually really is practically decentralized, with all of the ups and downs that that comes with. Users are distributed across instances, so there is no central gatekeeper that would stop me from talking with them. You can almost always avoid any instance-related drama by just running your own instance and interacting from there, if you want. Bluesky will never have that. For Bluesky, users that Bluesky Social PBC doesn't like will be invisible to the vast majority of the rest of the network.

And I'm sorry, but that's not what a decentralized network looks like.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#252

So we are not decentralized. Git was a good attempt, but it kind of got centralized around GitHub, GitLab, and other variants. BitTorrent was decentralized, except tracker sites were the natural centralization points. Bitcoin was also decentralized, but still had Coinbase and other sites. Even SMTP is de facto centralized due to the spam problem.

I think git is a successful attempt despite existing centralized hubs. git over ssh just works. Decentralized does not mean federated

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still no one cares. They just hop to the next centralized platform that hasn't enshittified yet. As we are seeing now with Bluesky. Perhaps the idea of decentralization was incorrect to begin with, an NI hallucination - perhaps it should be all about centralization-hopping instead. I believe this is what Nostr aims for, though I've never used it.

> Still no one cares. They just hop to the next centralized platform It's a wrong interpretation. Since they leave, they obviously care. They just don't know that decentralized platforms offer long-term solution.

> They just don't know that decentralized platforms offer long-term solution.

The crux is that most "decentralized" platforms don't offer long-term solution either. The whole concept of Federation only works as long as everybody is nice to each other, once that stops happening or bus-factor kicks in, you are back to all the problems of centralization and lock-in, since everybody is a user on a server they don't control. It's really no different from early Twitter or Reddit days when everything was nice and open until it suddenly wasn't.

Platforms that are actually build for true decentralization, where the user owns everything and the server owns nothing (public key crypto + dumb relay servers), are still extremely rare. Nostr is one that seems to be on the right track, but that's about the only one I can think of.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#256
post #2

Neat! I'm not surprised at the findings here. BlueSky (for the average user) is pretty much a drop in replacement for Twitter. Despite the smaller total numbers in Mastadon, it's great to see that the ecosystem seems to be successfully avoiding centralization like we've seen in the AT-Proto ecosystem. I suspect that the cost of running AT proto servers/relays is prohibitive for smaller players compared to a Mastadon…

This is due to different design goals. Bluesky's architecture was pretty much dictated by the premise that anyone needs to be able to see any post on the entire system, regardless of whether they have any connections with the author. That algorithmic entertainment-style feeds need to exist. You do need that firehose and other expensive infrastructure for that, there's no going around it. The fediverse, on the other h…

I think the Twitter format sucks in both cases, but having central, algorithmically-curated feeds are just bad for people psychologically. They just created another Twitter clone with the same problems. The only difference is fewer "nazis".

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#257
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moderation is definitely Fediverse’s weakness.

What even is "moderation" at this point? I'm not sure this word is used as defined on paper dictionaries. It is a codeword for something else, like censorship or influencing or artificial control of public opinion? Because, if it's purely about filtering out content not desired by users , it could be nearly trivially done at the edge, automatic and completely de-humanized, and the word as appearing lately doesn't rea…

I get where you're coming from, and I have largely the same sentiment, but it's obvious that you've never had any experience running a platform, or using one with no/few rules. You need baseline moderation, even if it isn't super ideological. You've got to keep pedophiles and misanthropes out at the very least.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#258
post #6
post #2

Neat! I'm not surprised at the findings here. BlueSky (for the average user) is pretty much a drop in replacement for Twitter. Despite the smaller total numbers in Mastadon, it's great to see that the ecosystem seems to be successfully avoiding centralization like we've seen in the AT-Proto ecosystem. I suspect that the cost of running AT proto servers/relays is prohibitive for smaller players compared to a Mastadon…

ATProto also has the downside of being supported by a corporation and investors with various backgrounds that will eventually want to earn something out of it all and there is no telling how this will happen.

Anything that is funded by venture capital WILL become worse. You can complain all you want about things that don't have infinite funding having issues, but they'll probably just stay at the same level or get slightly better over time. VC-backend companies only get worse after their early peak.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#259
Personal data detached from the rest is not measured, so I think it’s not realistic to try to determine whether everyone is decentralized. Use of a central decentralized app like Bluesky is not a good approximation imo.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you're making stuff up that obviously has no basis in reality here. Migration would be impossible because the bsky.app PDS wouldn't allow anyone to access the data except for the bsky.app relay. other appviews wouldn't display bsky.app data because both the PDS and relay would block them.

First of all, Bluesky the company would have to implement auth on the communication between relay and AppView, cut off everyone from using their relay, and specifically stop ingesting content from non-Bluesky PDSs. There would be time when we realize that's happening to get another AppView up and running. There are arguably enough resources in either the ATproto dev community or other funding sources that another App…

Who would use the new network? It would just be Mastodon Vs Twitter again. All the people you want to read the tweets of would (still) be on Blue Sky, not Black Sky or Red Sky or President Zelen Sky or whatever.

"Convince a HN user that a corporation with the ability to cut you off from your feed sources for more profit won't do exactly that and just because they use something decentralised-ish today doesn't mean they have to keep using that thing if they don't want to" challenge (difficulty: impossible)

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