>Mastodon, Pixelfed, etc. I would like to know the contents of the "etc." list.
See https://fedidb.com/
Is the working? Some of stats are off by digits.
Are we decentralized yet?
211–220 of 292 posts
Re: Are we decentralized yet?
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
>I suspect that the cost of running AT proto servers/relays is prohibitive for smaller players compared to a Mastadon server selectively syndicating with a few peers, but I say this with only a vague understanding of the internals of both of these ecosystems. This isn't quite right. ATProto has a completely different "shape" so it's hard to make apples-to-apples comparison. Roughly speaking, you can think of Mastodon…
> You can run one (and it costs about $300/mo to run a Bluesky AppView ingesting all data currently on the network in real time if you want to do that). A clarifying question: the blog post [0] I found about zeppelin.social which I think is a full AppView, the author said this: "The cost to run this is about US $200/mo, primarily due to the 16 terabytes of storage it currrently uses" Last I heard the amount of storag…
I can’t speak to how fast it grows and what it was, but I mean — if what you want is to keep the entire data of the network (similar to having all tweets on Twitter) ready to be queried then you have to store them. That’s just unavoidable in any technological solution. Alternatively you could hydrate and query posts on-demand from their sources (PDS), and people have done that as an experiment, but you need at least some aggregation to happen somewhere (for reconstructing reply lists or like lists etc). If more collectively-run network caches are available, this becomes more feasible without storing everything yourself.
In any case, if you’re okay with a partial snapshot of the network (eg all posts during some window or even more partial) then you can arbitrarily narrow that down. In Mastodon, having a “full” archive is downright impossible which is why we’re not talking about the same with regards to Mastodon. Whereas ATProto makes it possible, with the cost being the floor of what you’d expect the cost for storing data to be. How could it be better?
Re: Are we decentralized yet?
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not who you're replying to, but one issue is that different users will sometimes see a different subset of replies to a post, depending on what the server they're using has copied from other servers.
This isn't correct. Mastodon merged fetch-all-replies in March. https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/32615 The only difference in visible replies is in the moderation choices of the server the post is viewed from.
Yes but it's off by default for a reason, it's not realistic to expect every node to fetch all messages.
This is a catch 22 because the reason fedi is more decentralized is because of the low barrier of entry to run a node, but at the same time that low barrier means it takes less resources because it does not fetch every single message and piece of media.
Re: Are we decentralized yet?
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
>I suspect that the cost of running AT proto servers/relays is prohibitive for smaller players compared to a Mastadon server selectively syndicating with a few peers, but I say this with only a vague understanding of the internals of both of these ecosystems. This isn't quite right. ATProto has a completely different "shape" so it's hard to make apples-to-apples comparison. Roughly speaking, you can think of Mastodon…
> [1] Mastodon is adding a workaround for this with on-demand fetching, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45078133 for my questions about that; in any case, this is limited by what you can do on-demand in a pull-based decentralized system. I'm not super up-to-date on Mastodon's/ActivityPub's workings, but aren't replies to a post pushed to the original poster's server? So wouldn't followers then be able to pul…
This only works for direct reply chains, right? It doesn’t provide a realtime view into all existing conversations that are happening on the post.
Imagine if, when you refreshed this HN page, only comment chains you’re already in would refresh timely. Yes, this would “work” to some extent, but it would clearly be a regression.
Additionally, going viral can overload your server due to this architecture. In ATProto this never happpens for self-fosters (of PDS) because the cost is amortized by AppView. (Same as in centralized products where the cost is on the backend.)
Re: Are we decentralized yet?
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
But that isn’t how you calculate market share, so what you’re saying is nonsense.
There are multiple ways of calculating market share (e.g. units vs dollars or for different time periods) but assuming it is measured in dollars for a quarterly time period, how would you calculate the market share based upon my sample data above?
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Re: Are we decentralized yet?
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You can run one (and it costs about $300/mo to run a Bluesky AppView ingesting all data currently on the network in real time if you want to do that). A clarifying question: the blog post [0] I found about zeppelin.social which I think is a full AppView, the author said this: "The cost to run this is about US $200/mo, primarily due to the 16 terabytes of storage it currrently uses" Last I heard the amount of storag…
I can’t speak to how fast it grows and what it was, but I mean — if what you want is to keep the entire data of the network (similar to having all tweets on Twitter) ready to be queried then you have to store them. That’s just unavoidable in any technological solution. Alternatively you could hydrate and query posts on-demand from their sources (PDS), and people have done that as an experiment, but you need at least…
> if what you want is to keep the entire data of the network (similar to having all tweets on Twitter) ready to be queried then you have to store them.
They need to be stored, but do they technically have to be stored by just one AppView? I get that it's a 100x easier to implement it like that, but I don't think a distributed search would've been technically impossible (although, granted, necessarily it would have had worse UX).
Choosing this feature and then implementing it like they did was a technical choice. Technical choices have consequences and this, I think, was the one which will prevent BlueSky from reaching any meaningful decentralization.
And saying "you can create an inferior UX with affordable costs" is not a real answer. Any meaningful decentralization IMO can only happen if it's affordable to create feature identical nodes. That can only happen if you refuse to implement features in ways that need centralization to scale.
Re: Are we decentralized yet?
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You can run one (and it costs about $300/mo to run a Bluesky AppView ingesting all data currently on the network in real time if you want to do that). A clarifying question: the blog post [0] I found about zeppelin.social which I think is a full AppView, the author said this: "The cost to run this is about US $200/mo, primarily due to the 16 terabytes of storage it currrently uses" Last I heard the amount of storag…
I can’t speak to how fast it grows and what it was, but I mean — if what you want is to keep the entire data of the network (similar to having all tweets on Twitter) ready to be queried then you have to store them. That’s just unavoidable in any technological solution. Alternatively you could hydrate and query posts on-demand from their sources (PDS), and people have done that as an experiment, but you need at least…
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Re: Are we decentralized yet?
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
there is https://deer.social
This one isn't an AppView (it's a frontend for Bluesky's). However, https://blacksky.community/ and https://zeppelin.social/ are full AppViews.
Correction: Only https://zeppelin.social is. Blacksky runs a PDS and a Relay but not an AppView. My apologies.
Re: Are we decentralized yet?
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are multiple ways of calculating market share (e.g. units vs dollars or for different time periods) but assuming it is measured in dollars for a quarterly time period, how would you calculate the market share based upon my sample data above?
(company sales in period - company returns for sales made in said period) / (industry sales in period)
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Re: Are we decentralized yet?
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
(company sales in period - company returns for sales made in said period) / (industry sales in period)
With this formula market share for past periods can keep changing arbitrarily far into the future (depending on the companies' return policies).
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