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Are we decentralized yet?

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11–20 of 292 posts

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#11
post #3

How would one measure old school federated contexts like IRC and NNTP in this way? I wonder would they would fare.

For smaller semi-private circles IRC especially with web front-ends that provide scroll-back are still great but in my experience when they get too big there is just too much politics and too many cultural differences and things start to fall apart much like agilob's example. IRC is still great for groups of like minded people that do not need to bring in the entire world into their tent. In the early internet more people were like or similar minded and so it worked well for the most part. Some would even argue it still works great for the general public but I am not so sure. Keeping web interfaces semi-private with simple-auth and disabling referrers reduces the risk of botters, agent provocateurs and other forms of riff raff trying to sow division among people, or third party AI bots snooping or arguing.

NNTP is also great but most people can not afford individually to mirror entire binary groups and most ISP's no longer perform this so most people just use commercial news feeds if they want binaries or one of the free NNTP / Usenet providers if they are just using text. People can certainly peer with some of the free providers [1] and probably should to reduce the risk of people being censored. Much like IRC people can create their own little private or semi-private linked NNTP servers to replicate a distributed thread based forum of sorts.

[1] - https://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=peering

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#14
I'd like to see Nostr added to this, since userbase concentration is always the thing they levy against the fedi model. It'd be a little weird to adapt because user identities don't live on single relays.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#15
post #8

Keep the needle pointing north. Towards the center of that dial. Too decentralized, and you can't find anything. Nobody uses it. Too centralized, and censorship takes over. Nobody can speak freely.

You're presupposing that discoverability requires some degree of centralization.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#16
post #10
post #8

Keep the needle pointing north. Towards the center of that dial. Too decentralized, and you can't find anything. Nobody uses it. Too centralized, and censorship takes over. Nobody can speak freely.

I don't disagree but I do wonder if a.) discoverability is really so intractable in a decentralized environment if you're willing to throw a lot of resources towards indexing and b.) if that middle ground isn't like balancing a pendulum upside down - a very fragile equilibrium. A bunch of decentralized units might join together, or a large centralized unit might fail, pushing the pendulum to either side. You can thin…

That's a good point. Thiel's "Zero to One" makes it.

In economics, a market needs several reasonably strong businesses to get price competition. An EU study indicated that the minimum number is about 4. Below 4, price competition seems to disappear and you have oligopoly, or, at 1, monopoly.

In areas where there's no inherent effect like distance to stop centralization, markets tend towards oligopoly. Look at the number of browsers, the number of big banks, the number of cellular phone companies, and so forth. They're all between 2 and 4. The stable state seems to be around 3 big players.

This probably applies to social networks. There's only so much attention available.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#17
The honest truth is that:

Nobody outside tech cares about decentralization or federation.

At some point, everything converges to centralization.

No amount of Mastodon servers or any fediverse self hosted instances spun up will change that.

There is a reason that mastodon.social is the biggest instance and that they couldn't close registrations to promote decentralization.

Hell, I would even say that threads is the biggest mastodon instance.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#18
I think this compares AT proto PDSes to Fediverse instances. In many ways this actually underplays just how grossly centralized AT proto currently is, since some of the components are 100% centralized still. (Whereas Fediverse instances, all downsides considered, are at least self-contained fully-independent instances.)

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#19
post #6
post #2

Neat! I'm not surprised at the findings here. BlueSky (for the average user) is pretty much a drop in replacement for Twitter. Despite the smaller total numbers in Mastadon, it's great to see that the ecosystem seems to be successfully avoiding centralization like we've seen in the AT-Proto ecosystem. I suspect that the cost of running AT proto servers/relays is prohibitive for smaller players compared to a Mastadon…

ATProto also has the downside of being supported by a corporation and investors with various backgrounds that will eventually want to earn something out of it all and there is no telling how this will happen.

There are lots of ways they could make a sustainable income without disrupting Bluesky's current status quo and be comfortably rich for the rest of their lives... but that's completely out of character for them and will never happen. I do think the geeks currently running Bluesky are sincere in keeping it decentralized, but the money people will someday probably force them out and squeeze the user base for a quick buck. A hardcore nerd minority will splinter off, though, and keep the decentralized version running, so whatever. History repeats. Frog swims, scorpion stings.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#20
post #9
post #3

How would one measure old school federated contexts like IRC and NNTP in this way? I wonder would they would fare.

Remember how freenode changed owner and pretty much everyone moved away from it in less than 1 week? It was easy and possible.

Perhaps "frictionless migration" is the real metric to optimize for, rather than decentralization at any given point in time.
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