Why Romania excels in international Olympiads • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Romania excels in international Olympiads

#11

Post by IncreasePosts » Sat, Aug 30, 2025, 2:01 AM UTC

alephnerd wrote: post #8

jmspring wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t necessarily see a problem with enabling like talented groups to be mingled together, that said it depends on the metrics. A friend who had a 3.2 in HS did way better in life than several 4.0+ students. The other end of the spectrum is the way most of the US handles high school. Long gone are gifted and talented programs before high school and in many cases, for instance those with an ability for math are stuc…

The issue with "gifted only schools" is they end up eating the bulk of funds and legitimately don't have a strong predictive capacity on student success that couldn't already be explained the parental background and early childhood care. In my case, I never placed in gifted academic programs in elementary and middle, but by HS was able to take 14 AP classes (and auto shop - always liked tinkering since elementary sch…

Why should gifted schools need more money than normal schools? I would imagine "problematic children schools" would need the most funds because you would need the lowest teacher:student ratio to maintain order

Re: Why Romania excels in international Olympiads

#12

Post by akoboldfrying » Sat, Aug 30, 2025, 2:01 AM UTC

alephnerd wrote: post #8

jmspring wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t necessarily see a problem with enabling like talented groups to be mingled together, that said it depends on the metrics. A friend who had a 3.2 in HS did way better in life than several 4.0+ students. The other end of the spectrum is the way most of the US handles high school. Long gone are gifted and talented programs before high school and in many cases, for instance those with an ability for math are stuc…

The issue with "gifted only schools" is they end up eating the bulk of funds and legitimately don't have a strong predictive capacity on student success that couldn't already be explained the parental background and early childhood care. In my case, I never placed in gifted academic programs in elementary and middle, but by HS was able to take 14 AP classes (and auto shop - always liked tinkering since elementary sch…

>The issue with "gifted only schools" is they end up eating the bulk of funds

The article points out that the opposite is the case in Romania: the highest-ability schools receive a decrement in funding.

Re: Why Romania excels in international Olympiads

#13

Post by cyberax » Sat, Aug 30, 2025, 2:02 AM UTC

Well, you set up a system that fosters competition, you get excellence as a result.

DUH.

Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus also have similar systems, and they punch way above their weight in math and CS: https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=RUS https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=UKR https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=BLR

Ironically, the US schools do have tracking. For athletics.

The US absolutely _needs_ to have a school system that challenges students. No more nonsense about racist algebra.

Re: Why Romania excels in international Olympiads

#14

Post by cyberax » Sat, Aug 30, 2025, 2:06 AM UTC

alephnerd wrote: post #2

Tl;dr - Romania, like other Eastern European states, uses "tracking" or separate educational streams, so students from "National Colleges" (the top tier of Romanian high schools) tend to be overrepresented. > The design of Romania’s educational system makes it perhaps the most stratified educational system in the world > One of the cruel parts of the Romanian system is that, though sorting is nationally available, st…

> Ik people tend to point to Russian, Chinese, and Indian Olympiad students as being examples of success, but most of them also attended top universities due to their Olympiad attendance, so I doubt the Olympiad itself had an impact compared to attending a Tsinghua, FyzTech (Citadel still hires from there for the London office at least circa 2023 despite the war in Ukraine and sanctions on Russia), or IIT Delhi.

First, if you remove the Olympiad-based admission, there's no guarantee that these students could _get_ into the top-level universities.

Second, people in the US _love_ to point out that athletics "builds the character" and sets people up for success later in life. Well, do you think that training for Olympiads and competing in high-stakes academic tournaments also does nothing?

Re: Why Romania excels in international Olympiads

#15

Post by faangguyindia » Sat, Aug 30, 2025, 2:07 AM UTC

cyberax wrote: post #13

Well, you set up a system that fosters competition, you get excellence as a result. DUH. Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus also have similar systems, and they punch way above their weight in math and CS: https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=RUS https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=UKR https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=BLR Ironically, the US schools do have tracking. Fo…

"When a metric becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure" is known as Goodhart's Law

Re: Why Romania excels in international Olympiads

#16

Post by kazinator » Sat, Aug 30, 2025, 2:07 AM UTC

The education system is stratified, keeping high-achieving students together, promoting them to schools with good teachers, etc.

OK, so then why don't the situations given in the elaborate description then show up in the statistics, like the "fat right tail" that isn't there?

It's because the students sent to olympiads are statistical outliers, too few in number to skew statistics. The system acts to identify and foster them, but to the detriment of national averages.

Re: Why Romania excels in international Olympiads

#17

Post by kazinator » Sat, Aug 30, 2025, 2:09 AM UTC

cyberax wrote: post #13

Well, you set up a system that fosters competition, you get excellence as a result. DUH. Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus also have similar systems, and they punch way above their weight in math and CS: https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=RUS https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=UKR https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=BLR Ironically, the US schools do have tracking. Fo…

You get excellence in a tiny number of individuals who don't budge the statistics. The national averages are poor, and the excelling individuals are not even numerous enough to create a "fat right tail".

Re: Why Romania excels in international Olympiads

#18

Post by airstrike » Sat, Aug 30, 2025, 2:12 AM UTC

faangguyindia wrote: post #15

cyberax wrote: post #13

Well, you set up a system that fosters competition, you get excellence as a result. DUH. Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus also have similar systems, and they punch way above their weight in math and CS: https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=RUS https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=UKR https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=BLR Ironically, the US schools do have tracking. Fo…

"When a metric becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure" is known as Goodhart's Law

The parent is arguing for a target, not for a metric, so Goodhart's Law doesn't apply here.

Re: Why Romania excels in international Olympiads

#19

Post by cyberax » Sat, Aug 30, 2025, 2:14 AM UTC

alephnerd wrote: post #8

jmspring wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t necessarily see a problem with enabling like talented groups to be mingled together, that said it depends on the metrics. A friend who had a 3.2 in HS did way better in life than several 4.0+ students. The other end of the spectrum is the way most of the US handles high school. Long gone are gifted and talented programs before high school and in many cases, for instance those with an ability for math are stuc…

The issue with "gifted only schools" is they end up eating the bulk of funds and legitimately don't have a strong predictive capacity on student success that couldn't already be explained the parental background and early childhood care. In my case, I never placed in gifted academic programs in elementary and middle, but by HS was able to take 14 AP classes (and auto shop - always liked tinkering since elementary sch…

> The issue with "gifted only schools" is they end up eating the bulk of funds

No, they don't. If you look at SF, the high-performing Lowell High gets a bit _less_ funding than the average for the district. Stuyvesant in NYC is right at the average spending.

I studied in a magnet school with other gifted kids, including a future Olympiad winner. Our school barely had heating in winter. It's really the _other_ kids that make all the difference.

Re: Why Romania excels in international Olympiads

#20

Post by derbOac » Sat, Aug 30, 2025, 2:14 AM UTC

cyberax wrote: post #13

Well, you set up a system that fosters competition, you get excellence as a result. DUH. Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus also have similar systems, and they punch way above their weight in math and CS: https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=RUS https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=UKR https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=BLR Ironically, the US schools do have tracking. Fo…

IMHO there should be challenges but also opportunities for self correction and movement. The problem with test score stratification is that you start treating kids as unchanging objects being measured by an infallible yardstick, when neither assumption is true.

It's not racism it's essentialism and poor education. An ideal educational system would tailor material and projects to an individual student and adjust at the rate they improve.