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Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

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Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#141

>"Retrieval based on reasoning — say goodbye to approximate semantic search ("vibe retrieval" How is this not precisely "vibe retrieval" and much more approximate, where approximate in this case is uncertainty over the precise reasoning? Similarity with conversion to high-dimensional vectors and then something like kNN seems significantly less approximate, less "vibe" based, than this. This also appears to be complet…

It is just as "vibe-ish" as vector search and notably does require chunking (document chunks are fed to the indexer to build the table of contents). That said, I don't find vector search any less "vibey". While "mathematical similarity" is a structured operation, the "conversion to high-dimensional vectors" part is predicated on the encoder, which can be trained towards any objective. > scaling will become problemati…

It doesn't look like it's just root nodes from the structure, it appears to be the entire structure including a summary and excluding the text content itself:

    {json.dumps(tree_without_text, indent=2)}
The end result is that a pre-summarized digest is input in each prompt, the LLM selects whatever it decides on.

The pageIndex value add here is ostensibly the creation of that summary structure, but this too is done with LLM assistance. I've been through the code now, and what I see is essentially JSON creation and parsing during the index process that has LLM prompts as the creation engine for all of that as well.

Yes, it is technically vectorless-RAG, but it gets there completely and totally with iterative and recursive calls to an LLM on all sides.

Looking through the rest of their code & API, the API exists to do these things:

    1: Create your ToC using unsupervised[1]  LLM calls.
    2: Serve your ToC to an LLM when searching or querying your doc base
    3: Be your document store to return hits from #2
[1] Unsupervised in the ML sense, not as a value/quality judgement.

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#142

>"Retrieval based on reasoning — say goodbye to approximate semantic search ("vibe retrieval" How is this not precisely "vibe retrieval" and much more approximate, where approximate in this case is uncertainty over the precise reasoning? Similarity with conversion to high-dimensional vectors and then something like kNN seems significantly less approximate, less "vibe" based, than this. This also appears to be complet…

I work in this field, so I can answer. Embeddings are great at basic conceptual similarity, but in quality maximalist fields and use cases they fall apart very quickly. For example: "I want you to find inconsistencies across N documents." There is no concept of an inconsistency in an embedding. However, a textual summary or context stuffing entire documents can help with this. "What was John's opinion on the European…

Yes, sure vector similarity has limits, but does this address PageIndex's approach to those limits? I mean, beyond the approach of "Add structure with recursive LLM API calls, show LLM that structure to search". I don't see where PageIndex is doing more than this.

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#143

So, this has already been done plenty, Serena MCP and Codanna MCP both do this with AST source graphs, Codanna even gives hints in the MCP response to guide the agent to walk up/down the graph. There might be some small efficiency gain in having a separate agent walk the graph in terms of context savings, but you also lose solution fidelity, so I'm not sure it's a win. Also, it's not a replacement for RAG, it's just…

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Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#144

Second attempt to get away from vectors and embeddings I’ve seen here recently. Are people really struggling that much with their RAG systems?

curious about the other attempt you see

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44969622

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#146

So, this has already been done plenty, Serena MCP and Codanna MCP both do this with AST source graphs, Codanna even gives hints in the MCP response to guide the agent to walk up/down the graph. There might be some small efficiency gain in having a separate agent walk the graph in terms of context savings, but you also lose solution fidelity, so I'm not sure it's a win. Also, it's not a replacement for RAG, it's just…

Yeah, I agree it’s not something new, since humans also do this kind of retrieval. It’s just a way to generate a table of contents for an LLM. I’m wondering, when LLMs become stronger, will we still need vector-based retrieval? Or will we need a retrieval method that’s more like how humans do it?

> I’m wondering, when LLMs become stronger, will we still need vector-based retrieval? Or will we need a retrieval method that’s more like how humans do it?

If we knew how humans do it well enough to reproduce it, we’d probably skip straight to that. Everything in AI, though, is basically throwing ideas at the wall about how you might get closer to that, starting from very little knowledge of the mechanism and lots of anecdotes and subjective impressions about, but very little structured understanding of, even the behavior we want to mimic.

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#147
post #65

The folks who are using RAG, what's the SOTA for extracting text from pdf documents? I have been following discussions on HN and I have seen a few promising solutions that involve converting pdf to png and then doing extraction. However, for my application this looks a bit risky because my pdfs have tons of tables and I can't afford to get in return incorrect of made up numbers. The original documents are in HTML for…

Extracting structure and elements from HTML should be trivial and probably has multiple libraries in your programming language of choice. Be happy you have machine-readable semantic documents, that's best-case scenario in NLP. I used to convert the chunks to Markdown as it was more token-efficient and LLMs are often heavily preference trained on Markdown, but not sure with current input pricing and LLM performance ga…

Try DocuPipe. It blows Gemini out of the water in terms of accuracy in extracting . They also generate a page + bounding box for every extracted field.
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