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Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

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61–70 of 147 posts

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#61
post #54

I don't see this scaling: https://deepwiki.com/search/how-is-the-tree-formed-and-tra_9... I'd do some large scale benchmarks before doubling down on this approach.

A good thing about tree representation compared to a 'list' representation is that you can search hierarchically, layer by layer, in a large tree. For example, AlphaGo performs search in a large tree. Since the scale of retrieval is smaller than that of the Go game, I guess this framework can scale very well.

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#62

> It moves RAG away from approximate "semantic vibes" and toward explicit reasoning about where information lives. That clarity can help teams trust outputs and debug workflows more effectively. Wasn't this a feature of RAGs, though? That they could match semantics instead of structure, while us mere balls of flesh need to rely on indexes. I'd be interested in benchmarks of this versus traditional vector-based RAGs,…

In their gitHub repo’s readme, they show a benchmark on FinanceBench and found that PageIndex-based retrieval significantly outperforms vector-based methods. I’ve noticed that in domain-specific documents, where all the text has similar “semantic vibes,” non-vector methods like PageIndex can be more useful. In contrast, for use cases like recommendation systems, you might actually need a semantic-vibe search.

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#63
post #17

Not sure if I fully understand it, but this seems highly inefficient? Instead of using embeddings which are easy to make a cheap to compare, you use summarized sections of documents and process them with an LLM? LLM's are slower and more expensive to run.

I think it only needs to generate the tree once before retrieval, and it doesn’t require any external model at query time. The indexing may take some time upfront, but retrieval is then very fast and cost-free.

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#64

Context and prompt engineering is the most important of AI, hands down. There are plenty of lightweight retrieval options that don't require a separate vector database (I'm the author of txtai [ https://github.com/neuml/txtai ], which is one of them). It can be as simple this in Python: you pass an index operation a data generator and save the index to a local folder. Then use that for RAG.

Strongly agree, I also found txtai is super interesting! Thank you for your open-source effort!

You got it!

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#65
The folks who are using RAG, what's the SOTA for extracting text from pdf documents? I have been following discussions on HN and I have seen a few promising solutions that involve converting pdf to png and then doing extraction. However, for my application this looks a bit risky because my pdfs have tons of tables and I can't afford to get in return incorrect of made up numbers.

The original documents are in HTML format and although I don't have access to them I can obtain them if I want. Is it better to just use these HTML documents instead? Previously I tried converting HTML to markdown and then use these for RAG. I wasn't too happy with the result although I fear I might be doing something wrong.

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#66
post #6

Very cool. These days I’m building RAG over a large website, and when I look at the results being fed into the LLM, most of them are so silly it’s surprising the LLM even manages to extract something meaningful. Always makes me wonder if it’s just using prior knowledge even though it’s instructed not to do so (which is hacky). I like your approach because it seems like a very natural search process, like a human woul…

Strongly agree! It is basically the Mone-Carlo tree search method used in Alpha Go! This is also mentioned in one of their toturials: PageIndex/blob/main/tutorials/doc-search/semantics.md. I believe it will make the method more scalable for large documents.

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#67

I have a RAG built on 10000+ docs knowledge base. On vector store, of course (Qdrant - hybrid search). It work smoothly and quite reliable. I wonder how this "vectorless" engine would deal with this. Simply, I can't see this tech scalable.

A good thing about tree representation compared to a 'list' representation is that you can search hierarchically, layer by layer, in a large tree. For example, AlphaGo performs search in a large tree. Since the scale of retrieval is smaller than that of the Go game, I guess this framework can scale very well.

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#68
post #33

"Human-like Retrieval: Simulates how human experts navigate and extract knowledge from complex documents." - pretty sure I use control-f when I look for stuff

But different people may have different ways. For example, I use command+f in macbook.

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#69
post #65

The folks who are using RAG, what's the SOTA for extracting text from pdf documents? I have been following discussions on HN and I have seen a few promising solutions that involve converting pdf to png and then doing extraction. However, for my application this looks a bit risky because my pdfs have tons of tables and I can't afford to get in return incorrect of made up numbers. The original documents are in HTML for…

If accuracy is a major concern, then it's probably guaranteed better to go with the HTML documents. Otherwise, I've heard Docling is pretty good from a few co-workers.

Re: Show HN: PageIndex – Vectorless RAG

#70
post #65

The folks who are using RAG, what's the SOTA for extracting text from pdf documents? I have been following discussions on HN and I have seen a few promising solutions that involve converting pdf to png and then doing extraction. However, for my application this looks a bit risky because my pdfs have tons of tables and I can't afford to get in return incorrect of made up numbers. The original documents are in HTML for…

How about using something like Apache Tika for extracting text from multiple documents? It's a subproject of Lucene and consists of a proxy parser + delegates for a number of document formats. If a document, e.g. PDF, comes from a scanner, Tika can optionally shell-out a Tesseract invocation and perform OCR for you.
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