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US to review all 55M visas to check if holders broke rules

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Re: US to review all 55M visas to check if holders broke rules

#41
post #24

Guests in a country should follow some basic rules, starting with the laws. Who here would be happy if you invited a guest into your house and they ignored your customs like no shoes in the house or clean up after yourself. Why should countries be different.

> Who here would be happy if you invited a guest into your house and they ignored your customs like no shoes in the house or clean up after yourself.

It would be very reasonable to be unhappy about that, for sure. However, it's also reasonable to be unhappy when my neighbor kicks me out of their house for not taking off my shoes rather than reminding me to take them off. I'd probably stop visiting that neighbor, especially if the other people in my neighborhood could tell me similar stories.

Re: US to review all 55M visas to check if holders broke rules

#42
post #20
post #5

Every single person on the planet has broken some rule or another. If they want to kick all visa holders out they might as well do it without all the pretense (and save a bunch of money in the process).

At this point it seems they are trying to drag everyone through the mud so individuals have to waste all their personal time and capital fighting a deep pocketed state.

They want leverage

Re: US to review all 55M visas to check if holders broke rules

#43
post #25
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there? They are already a few rungs up from illegal criminals. Not much further to get to anyone since these are approved visa holders. Im just waiting for them to declare all Californians as non-citizens at this point.

That would be doing Californians a favor tbh. Then we'd have an excuse to leave this rotten union. Coastal Oregon and coastal Washington can come too.

>That would be doing Californians a favor tbh. Then we'd have an excuse to leave this rotten union.

I know this is just frustrated anger, but it does no good. Our union has survived more than one braindead administration before. We fought a war killing hundreds of thousands to save it for god's sake. We dealt with Zachary Tyler and Andrew Johnson and Grover Cleveland. We'll get past this moron and be stronger for it, just watch.

Re: US to review all 55M visas to check if holders broke rules

#44
post #24

Guests in a country should follow some basic rules, starting with the laws. Who here would be happy if you invited a guest into your house and they ignored your customs like no shoes in the house or clean up after yourself. Why should countries be different.

Are you saying that other people should do that because you did?

Re: US to review all 55M visas to check if holders broke rules

#45
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take PSA, since it's a simpler example. You're right that, if we screen everyone, taking action based on the outcome causes more harm than good. The response is to calibrate... which means we don't learn anything usefully actionable from the test and shouldn't apply it. With the MRI, you don't get back simple dichotomous things, but you get back potential indications. That can be scary - talk about calibration all yo…

> which means we don't learn anything usefully actionable from the test and shouldn't apply it. This just isn't true. In practice any such screening model can ALWAYS improve with more data—basically because the statistical power goes up and up—up to an asymptote set by noise in the physical process itself. > That can be scary Handling that is the job of professionals, is now and will continue to be. It is extremely r…

> This just isn't true. In practice any such screening model can ALWAYS improve with more data—basically because the statistical power goes up and up—up to an asymptote set by noise in the physical process itself.

That isn't how this works at all.

1. If you assume the test results are iid, sure you can increase your precision (presuming you're talking about repeatedly testing people?), but biology is messy and the tests are correlated. You can get all kinds of individual-specific cross-reactivity on a lab assay, for example. As another example, you can't just keep getting more MRIs to arbitrarily improve your confidence that something is cancer/not cancer/a particular type of cancer etc. 2. Statistical power is not relevant here, but rather different kinds of prediction error. It turns out that in the general population, it is NOT medically relevant that PSA is correlated with the presence of prostate cancer, because it is NOT predictive of mortality, and it IS a cause for unnecessary intervention and thus harm to patients.

I really don't mean to cause offense, but you're talking about this like someone who has no idea how these concepts interact with reality in the biomedical world. Like, you seem to be applying your intuition about how tabular data analysis tends to work in systems you're familiar with, and assuming it generalizes to a context where you don't have experience.

> this whole anti-MRI-everyone argument to be bewildering

It's not about being against MRIs, it's about the idea that (even ignoring costs/cost effectiveness) there are known real-world effects of over-screening people for things.

> But it is not inherently true—it is really a statement about poor statistical and policy practices in the field, which could be rectified with concerted effort, with a potential for great public upside.

This is still not at all a certainty. Let's say you lock this behind a screening system run by data scientists so that there's no patient or provider pressure to act in what you're calling a statistically poor manner. Ok, then what? They have to come up with a decision rule about when to dig deeper and get more data (which again, isn't an MRI, but rather is often an invasive procedure). It is not obvious that there exist any decision rule that could reasonably be arrived at that would be a good trade-off in terms of false positives and the corresponding additional burden.

I am 1000% willing to entertain the idea that new screening can be a net benefit, but we'd need to know what kind of sensitivity/specificity tradeoff would be involved to even start approximating the numbers, and then you'd need to do a trial to demonstrate that it's worthwhile, and even then you'd need to do post-trial monitoring to make sure there aren't unexpected second order effects. People DO, in fact, do this work.

The idea that "more data == better" is just way too simplistic when the data is messy and necessarily inconclusive, the outcomes of interest are rare, and the cost of additional screening can be severe - again also ignoring that all of this is expensive in the first place.

Re: US to review all 55M visas to check if holders broke rules

#46
post #36
post #24

Guests in a country should follow some basic rules, starting with the laws. Who here would be happy if you invited a guest into your house and they ignored your customs like no shoes in the house or clean up after yourself. Why should countries be different.

As someone else already pointed out, it's rather easy to find one law or the other that any particular person has broken - that's a fundamental problem with laws everywhere. So what you suggest is rather impractical when the regime is on a mission to find at least one for every 'guest'. But okay, your country your rules. But there is a catch. If you insist on treating every guest as a criminal to be confirmed, to be…

If the thing you did when entering a country was break the law by entering illegally, you should be removed. Just like if I broke into your house, I'm no longer a guest -- I'm a criminal.

You're finding nuance where there is none.

And you're mixing how a country treats guests with how it treat citizens.

Look at countries which have high expectations on how guests behave, e.g. Japan, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Poland, etc.

It's not cruelty to enforce laws.

You're the type of altruistic virtue signaling fool that would destroy their community or country just to feel better about themselves.

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