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Lessons for uncultured web developers

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Re: Lessons for uncultured web developers

#21

Post by panacea »

losvedir wrote: post #17
k-mcgrady wrote: post #7

Good list, and interesting how at least half of the points are about localisation/internationalization. The date point was good I find that one very annoying. The easiest way to work it out on forums is usually to look at the previous post and see what number goes down (day). I didn't realise the mm/dd format was only officially used in two countries. I've never understood why it's use at all, it makes much more sens…

> Is there a reason mm/dd was chosen in the US I don't know which came first, but it agrees with the way we say it out loud. "Today is September tenth." So, maybe that's why? And I think in other countries, it's said the other way around, right? "Today is the tenth of September?" That would actually be okay sounding in the U.S., too, though a little uncommon. Can you say "Today is tenth September"? That sounds very w…

September the Tenth, or Tenth of September.

Both read well, and when we use shorthand we use a "/" in place of the/of.

It makes more sense to order consistently by unit. So day month > day < year seems a bit silly.

Re: Lessons for uncultured web developers

#22

Post by jrnkntl »

losvedir wrote: post #17
k-mcgrady wrote: post #7

Good list, and interesting how at least half of the points are about localisation/internationalization. The date point was good I find that one very annoying. The easiest way to work it out on forums is usually to look at the previous post and see what number goes down (day). I didn't realise the mm/dd format was only officially used in two countries. I've never understood why it's use at all, it makes much more sens…

> Is there a reason mm/dd was chosen in the US I don't know which came first, but it agrees with the way we say it out loud. "Today is September tenth." So, maybe that's why? And I think in other countries, it's said the other way around, right? "Today is the tenth of September?" That would actually be okay sounding in the U.S., too, though a little uncommon. Can you say "Today is tenth September"? That sounds very w…

In Dutch we say: 'ten september' (also, we don't capitalize names of the month, see: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Capitalization#Capitalization...)

Re: Lessons for uncultured web developers

#23

Post by k-mcgrady »

losvedir wrote: post #17
k-mcgrady wrote: post #7

Good list, and interesting how at least half of the points are about localisation/internationalization. The date point was good I find that one very annoying. The easiest way to work it out on forums is usually to look at the previous post and see what number goes down (day). I didn't realise the mm/dd format was only officially used in two countries. I've never understood why it's use at all, it makes much more sens…

> Is there a reason mm/dd was chosen in the US I don't know which came first, but it agrees with the way we say it out loud. "Today is September tenth." So, maybe that's why? And I think in other countries, it's said the other way around, right? "Today is the tenth of September?" That would actually be okay sounding in the U.S., too, though a little uncommon. Can you say "Today is tenth September"? That sounds very w…

I usually say "Today is the 10th/tenth of September".

Re: Lessons for uncultured web developers

#24

Post by HumanamuH »

Tichy wrote: post #2

Why is nobody using the ISO format for dates? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601 yyyy-mm-dd? Another benefit is that it sorts correctly in the file explorers (I used to name my photo folders like that...). Coming from a country where we typically do dd/mm I can never remember what the English standard is. I've taken to always writing the name of the month to be sure. Also, can the huge lead of the iPhone still be…

On HumanamuH I'm using "yyyy-mm-dd" or "mm-dd hh-mm" wherever several dates are displayed in a column (e.g. chat messages or notifications). I think it's easier to see where the day or month changed and it's sorted intuitively. But...

Several people who registered from the US stumbled over the form that lets you enter your birthday in "dd-mm-yyyy" format. Even though the format is explained right behind the form field. They were probably just as irritated as the majority of the world is by "mm-dd-yyyy". Not sure if using "yyyy-mm-dd" for birthdays works better internationally.

Maybe changing the format depending on the IP address would reduce confusion. Of course, users could also have an option to localize their date formats, but I assume most wouldn't want to bother.

By the way, the article contains Wikipedia's map of "Date format by country" which answers your question why nobody is using the ISO format for dates (some do):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_format_by_country#Map

Re: Lessons for uncultured web developers

#25

Post by m_for_monkey »

Tichy wrote: post #2

Why is nobody using the ISO format for dates? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601 yyyy-mm-dd? Another benefit is that it sorts correctly in the file explorers (I used to name my photo folders like that...). Coming from a country where we typically do dd/mm I can never remember what the English standard is. I've taken to always writing the name of the month to be sure. Also, can the huge lead of the iPhone still be…

Traditionally, East Asian languages and Hungarian (I don't know about Lithuania and Iran), that use the YMD format have an overall "big endian logic". We say many things backwards compared to the rest of the world. Our names are also in reverse order, for example.

Re: Lessons for uncultured web developers

#26

Post by losvedir »

panacea wrote: post #21
losvedir wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there a reason mm/dd was chosen in the US I don't know which came first, but it agrees with the way we say it out loud. "Today is September tenth." So, maybe that's why? And I think in other countries, it's said the other way around, right? "Today is the tenth of September?" That would actually be okay sounding in the U.S., too, though a little uncommon. Can you say "Today is tenth September"? That sounds very w…

September the Tenth, or Tenth of September. Both read well, and when we use shorthand we use a "/" in place of the/of. It makes more sense to order consistently by unit. So day month > day < year seems a bit silly.

I agree it's a silly ordering. What dialect of English do you speak?

> September the Tenth

Even this sounds a little funny to my ears. In American English people say almost exclusively "September Tenth" in that order without any prepositions.

Re: Lessons for uncultured web developers

#27

Post by davidw »

> 6. Country code top level domains give context

However, pay attention to the fact that "top level domain" does not necessarily have anything to do with language.

For instance, .it = Italian, right?

Wrong. There are German and French language minorities here, amongst others. Other countries are even more confusing/problematic.

Re: Lessons for uncultured web developers

#28

Post by Toshio »

tomcorrigan wrote: post #19
Toshio wrote: post #9

There's an eleventh one, which should probably be given number zero for being top priority: read this essay and live by it: Lesson Zero: Don't Be A Sharecropper: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2003/07/12/WebsThePla...

How is this at all relevant to the linked article?

+1 for shurane's explanation.

Re: Lessons for uncultured web developers

#29

Post by andyjohnson0 »

Another lesson that might be useful is not to assume that the week starts on a particular day.

I live in the UK and the general convention here is the the week on Monday. In find calendars (presumably designed in the US) that start on Sunday particularly frustrating and error-prone. Not being able to customise this is uncultured.

Different cultures have different conventions, and if a seven-day week is the norm then it start on Saturday, Sunday, or Monday [1]. And, of course, some cultures don't use a seven-day week.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_days_of_the_week#N...

Re: Lessons for uncultured web developers

#30

Post by davidw »

losvedir wrote: post #26
panacea wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

September the Tenth, or Tenth of September. Both read well, and when we use shorthand we use a "/" in place of the/of. It makes more sense to order consistently by unit. So day month > day < year seems a bit silly.

I agree it's a silly ordering. What dialect of English do you speak? > September the Tenth Even this sounds a little funny to my ears. In American English people say almost exclusively "September Tenth" in that order without any prepositions.

I concur. At least if the person is not saying something along the lines of

"On this date, the 10th of September, Year of Our Lord Two Thousand and Twelve..."

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