The first Media over QUIC CDN: Cloudflare • Hacker News Board

Re: The first Media over QUIC CDN: Cloudflare

#21

Post by kixelated » Fri, Aug 22, 2025, 7:59 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #17

kixelated wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey dang, I don't think my blog is a repost. It links the Cloudflare announcement but the content is completely different (and actually funny). Is there any way you could restore it?

It's not that it's a repost; it's that it's mostly reporting on the content of another article. In such cases it's standard HN practice to prefer the latter, as the guidelines say (and have said since ancient times). It's not that you did anything wrong! and I'm sorry, I know it sucks to have an article doing well on the frontpage and then plummet for no obvious reason. But from a mod practice point of view this is a…

I linked the URL to their relay but otherwise all of the libraries, demos, rants, jokes are my own. I can remove the link to their post if that would help, or I could get Cloudflare's blessing. It's just a bit frustrating.

Re: The first Media over QUIC CDN: Cloudflare

#22

Post by englishm » Fri, Aug 22, 2025, 8:03 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #17

kixelated wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey dang, I don't think my blog is a repost. It links the Cloudflare announcement but the content is completely different (and actually funny). Is there any way you could restore it?

It's not that it's a repost; it's that it's mostly reporting on the content of another article. In such cases it's standard HN practice to prefer the latter, as the guidelines say (and have said since ancient times). It's not that you did anything wrong! and I'm sorry, I know it sucks to have an article doing well on the frontpage and then plummet for no obvious reason. But from a mod practice point of view this is a…

(OP of the Cloudflare blog & submission here) I think kixelated is saying enough stuff beyond our post that he deserves the credit for and this shouldn't be treated as a dupe. (emailed to say as much also)

Re: The first Media over QUIC CDN: Cloudflare

#23

Post by kixelated » Fri, Aug 22, 2025, 8:04 PM UTC

tschellenbach wrote: post #18

englishm wrote: post #3

Hi! Cloudflare MoQ dev here, happy to answer questions! Thanks for the award, kixelated. xD

hi, I work on our webrtc streaming over at getstream.io webrtc has a lot of annoying setup. but after it connects it offers low latency. how do you feel MoQ compares after the connection setup is completed? any advantages/ any issues?

QUIC/WebTransport gives you the ability to drop media, either via stream or datagrams, so you can get the same sort of response to congestion as WebRTC. However, one flaw with MoQ right now is that Google's GCC congestion controller prioritizes latency over throughput, while QUIC's TCP-based congestion controllers prioritize throughput over latency. We can improve that on the server side, but will need browser support on the client side.

As for the media pipeline, there's no latency on the transmission side and the receiver can choose the latency. You literally have to build your own jitter buffer and choose when to render individual frames.

Re: The first Media over QUIC CDN: Cloudflare

#24

Post by wiradikusuma » Fri, Aug 22, 2025, 8:08 PM UTC

Since it's "under the hood" as long as major browsers support it (I can't even find in caniuse?) it's good.

And I guess if webview engines like Microsoft Edge WebView2 supports it then developers can use it immediately (wrapping it).

But how about from the other side, I guess OBS and YouTube must start supporting it to actually be useful?

Re: The first Media over QUIC CDN: Cloudflare

#25

Post by kixelated » Fri, Aug 22, 2025, 8:08 PM UTC

hn-user-42 wrote: post #20

I found your first app interesting. You should submit it as Show HN. I used to work in live video platform. I have found MoQ interesting enough to work on it again.

Yeah I will soon, but I could also use the time to fix up some more stuff.

Re: The first Media over QUIC CDN: Cloudflare

#26

Post by torginus » Fri, Aug 22, 2025, 8:11 PM UTC

englishm wrote: post #3

Hi! Cloudflare MoQ dev here, happy to answer questions! Thanks for the award, kixelated. xD

Hi! I have a few :)

How close are we to having QUIC actually usable in browsers (meaning both browsers and infrastructure supports it, and it 'just works')

How does QUIC get around the NAT problem? WebRTC requires STUN/TURN to get through full cone NAT, particularly the latter is problematic, since it requires a bunch of infra to run.

Re: The first Media over QUIC CDN: Cloudflare

#27

Post by kixelated » Fri, Aug 22, 2025, 8:15 PM UTC

madsushi wrote: post #2

Related, the WARP streaming protocol, as a candidate for what would ride over MoQ: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-moq-warp/

Hi I originally wrote WARP and used something similar at Twitch. It supports CMAF segments, so the media encoding is backwards compatible with HLS/DASH and can share a cache, which is a big deal for a gradual production rollout.

Re: The first Media over QUIC CDN: Cloudflare

#28

Post by englishm » Fri, Aug 22, 2025, 8:15 PM UTC

madsushi wrote: post #2

Related, the WARP streaming protocol, as a candidate for what would ride over MoQ: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-moq-warp/

Yes, exactly! I mention that in the post. Streaming formats are where a lot of interesting decisions can be made about how best to optimize QoE for different use cases. MoQT is designed have enough levers to pull to enable a lot of clever tricks across a wide gamut of latency targets, while also being decoupled from all of the media details so we can get good economies of scale sharing fan out infrastructure.

WARP's development (at the IETF) up until now has been largely spearheaded by Will Law, but it's an IETF spec so anyone can participate in the working group and help shape what the final standard looks like. WARP is a streaming format designed mainly for live streaming use cases, and builds on a lot of experience with other standards like DASH. If that doesn't fit your use case, you can also develop your own streaming format, and if it's something you think others could benefit from, too, you could bring it to the IETF to standardize.

Re: The first Media over QUIC CDN: Cloudflare

#29

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 22, 2025, 8:23 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #17

kixelated wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey dang, I don't think my blog is a repost. It links the Cloudflare announcement but the content is completely different (and actually funny). Is there any way you could restore it?

It's not that it's a repost; it's that it's mostly reporting on the content of another article. In such cases it's standard HN practice to prefer the latter, as the guidelines say (and have said since ancient times). It's not that you did anything wrong! and I'm sorry, I know it sucks to have an article doing well on the frontpage and then plummet for no obvious reason. But from a mod practice point of view this is a…

[deleted]

Re: The first Media over QUIC CDN: Cloudflare

#30

Post by MattRix » Fri, Aug 22, 2025, 8:25 PM UTC

A small note: I found the styling of your post made it annoying to read. You shouldn’t highlight key words so strongly, especially using the same green you’re using for links. It makes it take mental effort to tell them apart.