Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Florida lawmaker floats ban on HOAs amid growing backlash

tampabay28.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 186 posts

Re: Florida lawmaker floats ban on HOAs amid growing backlash

#121

Post by LargeWu »

ghaff wrote: post #115
LargeWu wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"someone needs to assess and allocate costs which isn't always obvious" In most places, this is called the city government. Ultimately this feels like the "low tax area" myth is getting exposed. You still need to pay for all the same things your taxes would otherwise pay for, but for some reason it's different as long as it's not called a tax.

So shared facilities for a group of private individuals have to approved by and ongoing maintenance provided by the a government (as long as they feel like it) or they're not allowed to exist?

In the absence of an HOA, what you're describing as "shared facilities for a group of private individuals" would be commonly considered a private club. The difference is most private clubs that are not HOA's are not tied to owning specific property. For example, my sister belongs to a private pool club in their neighborhood. They pay membership dues to the club which provides operating revenue for the pool facilities, but it's not tied to any property ownership.

Re: Florida lawmaker floats ban on HOAs amid growing backlash

#122

Post by _9ptr »

drewg123 wrote: post #43

What I found ironic when I moved to suburban Virginia is that the same Tea Party, "Don't Tread on Me" conservatives that want to dismantle government love HOAs. I lived in a neighborhood full of them, with the most strict and annoying HOA. We were forced to wait several weeks to replace an actively leaking roof b/c the HOA had to sign off on the shingles -- even though they were the same color/size/etc as the shingle…

Well, it's different if you're the government

Re: Florida lawmaker floats ban on HOAs amid growing backlash

#123

Post by danaris »

judge2020 wrote: post #86
qualeed wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I guess I can kind of understand that. It's just not something I've experienced. I've never felt that there was a "gap" that needed to be filled. Especially not by a group that can also tell me that my paint has to be a certain color or whatever.

Things like maintaining a community’s cohesiveness (eg via restricting exterior cosmetic changes, requiring lawn maintenance, etc) are in the HOA contract in an effort to maintain/increase the community’s home values over time. And, of course, people can choose not to buy a home in a community like this if they don’t agree to the provisions of the HOA. Even before the 2021 surge in home values, homes on city streets…

> And, of course, people can choose not to buy a home in a community like this if they don’t agree to the provisions of the HOA.

One of the common problems I've heard of (not firsthand, so this may be apocryphal—but it wasn't just once that I heard it) is that buyers don't get to see the HOA agreement, or even know it exists, until after they've bought the property. (IIRC, the situations where the latter was the case were either buyers not reading their purchase contract closely enough, and thus missing the actual requirement to agree to the HOA, or neighborhoods where the HOA was not legally required, but if you didn't join it they'd gang up and make your life a living hell.)

Re: Florida lawmaker floats ban on HOAs amid growing backlash

#124

Post by propter_hoc »

firesteelrain wrote: post #114
propter_hoc wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I upvoted you despite entirely disagreeing with your premise. Yes - negotiate with the county to take over management of the playgrounds and lawn mowing. Yes - make the clubhouse and parking lots open, fee-based and voluntary, and controlled by a private corporation rather than an imposed, taxed service. Yes - return the excess money to the current homeowners, or use some of it to effectuate these conversions. Honest…

We have a reserve study completed by a professional company that requires us to hold this much. For example, we are replacing two AC units for $50k total. Pool needs to be resurfaced for $100k. We have roof repairs that will need to be done eventually, gym equipment replacements, various beautification repairs, weir repair ($250k), fish guards/blockers, pond maintenance etc

Sure - I understand these roofing, HVAC and landscaping expenses are associated to the common amenities? So if you spin out the clubhouse into a country club that members can opt to join, you can allocate the clubhouse an appropriate amount of cash. When you negotiate with the county to take over management of the grounds including the pond, you can negotiate to give them some of the reserve money for the future pond fixes.

I understand it wouldn't be easy to change all these management responsibilities, but in principle everything the HOA does can be devolved to either voluntary associations, or to public authorities (as happens in most of the rest of the world). Unlike a condo association, it's not a completely unimaginable shift what this lawmaker is proposing.

Re: Florida lawmaker floats ban on HOAs amid growing backlash

#125

Post by Bender »

firesteelrain wrote: post #80
gwbas1c wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do we do with the $500k we have the operating funds and reserves collected over the past 40 years? Uhm, return it to the property owners? The real pattern is that HOAs have been abusing their power; or in other cases are required because municipalities don't want to do their job. As a result the lawmakers will, unfortunately, overcorrect.

What property owners is my point? Many are long gone and the (now) $175 a quarter we charge goes towards the common amenities. What would happen is we would have to surrender those funds to the State. So this would lead to a huge windfall for the State. States have rules for what happens when a HOA dissolves. That means the money goes right to the State including the sale of the common property.

I would guess it will vary by state laws. How about a force liquidation of all tenants in common properties and any other joint properties to pay off the HOA debts and disband the HOA's. Maybe even treat it much like a chapter 11 bankruptcy / reorg? Or get investors to pick up properties?

There must be cases of HOA's being force disbanded / dissolved in the past to use as a template. I think it's just a majority vote from home owners and submission of articles of dissolution? If enough properties could be liquidated then a good incentive could be giving home owners back a few years of dues. As a bonus all the over-zealous rules that have grown over the decades get dissolved and people just default to county and state laws.

Re: Florida lawmaker floats ban on HOAs amid growing backlash

#126

Post by danaris »

OutOfHere wrote: post #104
fred_is_fred wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hear the bad stories. It all depends on who was elected and who votes. Most HOAs are not the horror stories you hear, just a quiet entity that maintains common property and is a backup solution for problems (when talking to neighbor does not work). Mine is cheap, like $300/year and we have a shared park, community space, and where I live lots of irrigation. They only send out letters for egregious violations and…

What's stopping them from charging you $3000 or even $10000 next year, or escalating progressively to these numbers? What's stopping them from adding ten new ridiculous rules? Nothing. It's about giving up your freedom.

The answer to that is always "you". Well, collectively.

An HOA isn't a separate body with no stake in the properties involved—that would be a property management company or something similar. It's a body made up of the people who actually live there. So while they could potentially charge you $3000 or $10,000 in bullshit fines for something they decided you did, they (usually) can't realistically charge you $3000 for dues without charging the same to everyone. Including themselves.

That said, there are definitely circumstances where an HOA is fully captured by a small clique of highly-active, highly-entitled, power-mad people with too much time on their hands and too little common sense or compassion, and they can't be gotten rid of either because of byzantine bylaws or because they actually are a majority of the people in the neighborhood.

Re: Florida lawmaker floats ban on HOAs amid growing backlash

#127

Post by firesteelrain »

propter_hoc wrote: post #124
firesteelrain wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a reserve study completed by a professional company that requires us to hold this much. For example, we are replacing two AC units for $50k total. Pool needs to be resurfaced for $100k. We have roof repairs that will need to be done eventually, gym equipment replacements, various beautification repairs, weir repair ($250k), fish guards/blockers, pond maintenance etc

Sure - I understand these roofing, HVAC and landscaping expenses are associated to the common amenities? So if you spin out the clubhouse into a country club that members can opt to join, you can allocate the clubhouse an appropriate amount of cash. When you negotiate with the county to take over management of the grounds including the pond, you can negotiate to give them some of the reserve money for the future pond…

Right agree and I think I have tried to articulate that here and below. Florida law says what to do when HOAs are dissolved. Point is it will be extremely messy to suddenly dissolve hundreds or thousands of HOAs. Windfall for the State too because the money by default needs to go somewhere and it won’t go back to the homeowners (which ones btw current or past, law doesn’t speak to it). So it goes to the State based on the sale of the land and properties.

I don’t think homeowners will be universally pleased with this.

Re: Florida lawmaker floats ban on HOAs amid growing backlash

#128

Post by firesteelrain »

Bender wrote: post #125
firesteelrain wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What property owners is my point? Many are long gone and the (now) $175 a quarter we charge goes towards the common amenities. What would happen is we would have to surrender those funds to the State. So this would lead to a huge windfall for the State. States have rules for what happens when a HOA dissolves. That means the money goes right to the State including the sale of the common property.

I would guess it will vary by state laws. How about a force liquidation of all tenants in common properties and any other joint properties to pay off the HOA debts and disband the HOA's. Maybe even treat it much like a chapter 11 bankruptcy / reorg? Or get investors to pick up properties? There must be cases of HOA's being force disbanded / dissolved in the past to use as a template. I think it's just a majority vote…

Florida law says what to do when dissolving HOa and how to do it

Re: Florida lawmaker floats ban on HOAs amid growing backlash

#129

Post by ocdtrekkie »

staticman2 wrote: post #119
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in Illinois merely refusing to provide the report is illegal on its own. So it's unlikely a condo lawyer did this "just to win" for a safe building. Specifically if you take the HOA to court for not revealing a document they legally have to, and the judge sides with the unit owner, the HOA has to pay the owner's attorney fees. The issue is HOAs and management companies have warchests for stuff like this, individua…

Maybe you could explain why you think they refused to turn the engineer report over? Obviously I don't know the details but their lawyer being an adversarial asshole sounds most likely to me. What other explanation is there? Like... was the board planning to sell their units before people realized the building had problems?

So the HOA was indeed quite concerned with their property values and that a higher assessment impacts sale value. It's also important to note that this HOA covered multiple buildings, and none of the board lived in mine: So their unit was not at risk from the structure, but their assessment price was.

The buildings were approaching an age where more significant/costly maintenance is necessary and I don't think they wanted to have to do those things.

Re: Florida lawmaker floats ban on HOAs amid growing backlash

#130

Post by ghaff »

LargeWu wrote: post #121
ghaff wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So shared facilities for a group of private individuals have to approved by and ongoing maintenance provided by the a government (as long as they feel like it) or they're not allowed to exist?

In the absence of an HOA, what you're describing as "shared facilities for a group of private individuals" would be commonly considered a private club. The difference is most private clubs that are not HOA's are not tied to owning specific property. For example, my sister belongs to a private pool club in their neighborhood. They pay membership dues to the club which provides operating revenue for the pool facilities…

Some things like beaches/pools/golf clubs/etc. can generally be policed with tokens/keys and so forth. That is not generally true of all shared facilities in a neighborhood. And I'm not at all sure the local government should be responsible for anything that residents should care to share on a communal basis. Want a playground or dog park? That's the government's responsibility? Maybe. But now that's up to a broader section of voters.
Post reply on HN