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Black Swan Farming

paulgraham.com

151–160 of 321 posts

Re: Black Swan Farming

#151
Given the small number of companies that 'return the fund' is the YC dataset even statistically meaningful for 2 events out of all the companies accepted?

Would the outcome possibly be better by using an approach similar to index funds. By focusing on repeatability would it be possible that one might be able to put together a fund where 30 to 40% of the return is made up by 'average' companies and then take the outliers as bonuses rather than focusing on an event that's unpredictable given the amount of statistical data available?

Or is YC as close to an index fund as it gets?

Re: Black Swan Farming

#152
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if you randomly decided which startups to invest in, would you be more successful? Can you really predict anything? If you randomly invested in 100 startups, would your returns be better than your screening process? Can you test this?

They do something similar with equity trades. They get professionals and public entrants to select stocks and include a 'dartboard'. From my limited reading experience the dartboard rarely wins implying people do add value, but it would be interesting if someone could find a history (I didn't with a quick Google). In Australia one news paper includes an Astrologer which I find amusing. With start-ups I think it would…

"From my limited reading experience the dartboard rarely wins implying people do add value"

This is wrong. If the dartboard consistently underperformed most stockpickers (i.e. say it ranked around the 30th percentile year over year) then you could make the case that (some) people add value. If, on the other hand, the dartboard is near the mean of the distribution of outcomes, you could make a case that it's all luck.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#153
post #18

There's a pretty interesting lesson for potential YC candidates, particularly the ones that get turned down, here. When you interview a startup and think "they seem likely to succeed," it's hard not to fund them. And yet, financially at least, there is only one kind of success: they're either going to be one of the really big winners or not, and if not it doesn't matter whether you fund them, because even if they suc…

"What this means is that YC is not looking for sustainable businesses, but homeruns. Which is entirely fair, that's the business they're in."

Not really. He's saying that going by the numbers _should_ be only looking for homeruns but, for a number of different reasons, they don't do that.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#154
post #29

Quoth pg: It would hurt YC's brand (at least among the innumerate) if we invested in huge numbers of risky startups that flamed out. Paul, you're sounding like a venture capitalist who is worried about whether he can find investors for his next fund. I would posit that the people whose opinions you should care about are potential founders ; and that their primary concern is themselves , not the performance of a fund…

I do care about would-be founders' opinions, but surely I don't have to use every essay I write to convince people to apply to YC. I've already written elsewhere about the founder's eye view of YC (e.g. http://ycombinator.com/atyc.html ). This essay is just an exploration of the strangeness of startup investing as a business. The goal is not to convince anyone to do anything.

Do you think it might be possible to run this kind of program under a separate brand, similar to the relationship between Touchstone and Disney?

Re: Black Swan Farming

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mentioning rock stars make me wonder if being a scout for a record label is similar. A band that's going to define a new genre or movement will sound nothing like anything currently popular, so it seems you have to identify the things that sound nothing like what's popular but that sound like what will be popular. The returns aren't as dominated by just a few big successes, though. Although I suppose one-hit wond…

You mentioning rock stars make me wonder if being a scout for a record label is similar. A band that's going to define a new genre or movement will sound nothing like anything currently popular, so it seems you have to identify the things that sound nothing like what's popular but that sound like what will be popular. Publishers, from what I can tell, have the same problem. One thing that I'm struck by is how many no…

With self publishing now, it is likely that unpopular works will persist. Over time there is more of a chance that anything great that was passed over will eventually find it's audience. Whereas in the past that stuff that didn't get published may have only existed as a single or few copies and was eventually lost to the passage of time.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#156
post #80

Just curious, YC people - let's say that an eccentric billionaire asked you to "invest" in things that would have the greatest impact on the world, even if they weren't profit-generating enterprises. Would you have invested in Wikipedia? Tim Berners-Lee's WorldWideWeb project? WikiLeaks? Linux? I guess I'm interested because it's not clear to me that any of the founders of these things radiate "winner" in the same wa…

Improving medical technology with a goal of curing currently-uncurable diseases, making health care cheap enough to make Medicare sustainable (perhaps specifically by looking for ways to eliminate 90% of the costs associated with the half dozen or so families of diseases that Medicare finds most expensive), and improve quality of life with better treatments.

Better transportation infrastructure, especially high speed rail. (Notice how the French have better track than the Germans because the Germans put off investment while playing with maglev; Elon Musk might be at risk for repeating the same mistake in the US with Hyperloop.)

Fiber optic cable to just about every building in the world, owned by people who charge at a rate that isn't much higher than the construction cost and don't try to keep charging more and more for higher data rates.

Possibly some more good parks.

We need cheap solar and batteries too, but I think those things are likely inevitable given enough time at this point.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#157

This is a very interesting essay, if for no other reason that when smart people observe that other smart people have mental blocks against believing the truth of measurable features of material reality, that suggests a market inefficiency. Persistent market inefficiencies should always ping your radar a little bit, because exploiting them makes you rich.

One inefficiency could be related to this point Paul makes: We can afford to take at least 10x as much risk as Demo Day investors. And since risk is usually proportionate to reward, if you can afford to take more risk you should. What would it mean to take 10x more risk than Demo Day investors? We'd have to be willing to fund 10x more startups than they would. Which means that even if we're generous to ourselves and…

That quote was the sketchiest part of the article for me, because the same math was used to justify the subprime mortgage bubble.

The implicit assumption is that the population of startups is uniform across both the set that YC funds and the set that YC does not fund, such that startups in the latter group have the same chance of being a big hit (modulo YC's mentoring, which is accounted for with the "triple a startup's expected value" clause). But the implication of that assumption is that YC is picking startups at random, and that their filtering process is totally useless!

This sort of math comes up all the time whenever there's a screening process. Imagine that you're hiring for a large tech company, you currently hire 1% of applicants, and you find that among the employees hired, there is no correlation between your interview scores and the employee's eventual job performance. Can you conclude that your interviewing is useless? Should you ramp up hires so you get more workforce of equal quality?

Well, maybe. Because there are a bunch of possible hypotheses that could give this result. Perhaps your interview process is designed to weed out false positives more than false negatives, so it's accurate to the 99th percentile, but then gives no discriminatory power. (Many IQ tests are like this; they're highly correlated with life outcomes up until an IQ of about 140, but beyond that they break down entirely and there's often an inverse correlation with income, happiness, etc. past that). Or perhaps your applicant pool is bimodal: 1% come from other employers and are fully qualified, while 99% are the same jobseekers that every other company rejects. Or perhaps your interview process is broken, and you would do better to find a new one. Or perhaps your interview process is okay, but a number of well-qualified applicants are not even applying to your company.

Which of these is correct? You can't know without randomly sampling the population that was rejected and making an estimate of their quality. This is why all decent scientific experiments have a control, and why financial models get backtested on data that was not part of the training set. Even then, there're lots of things that can go wrong in experiment design, and lots of different ways to interpret data that don't necessarily mean "Fund 10x more startups."

Re: Black Swan Farming

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One inefficiency could be related to this point Paul makes: We can afford to take at least 10x as much risk as Demo Day investors. And since risk is usually proportionate to reward, if you can afford to take more risk you should. What would it mean to take 10x more risk than Demo Day investors? We'd have to be willing to fund 10x more startups than they would. Which means that even if we're generous to ourselves and…

That quote was the sketchiest part of the article for me, because the same math was used to justify the subprime mortgage bubble. The implicit assumption is that the population of startups is uniform across both the set that YC funds and the set that YC does not fund, such that startups in the latter group have the same chance of being a big hit (modulo YC's mentoring, which is accounted for with the "triple a startu…

"That quote was the sketchiest part of the article for me, because the same math was used to justify the subprime mortgage bubble."

Except that YC doesn't do this. They aren't funding 10x more startups and pg says he avoids finding out how many get funded afterwards because it's the wrong thing to optimize for.

To put it another way, there are a lot of ways to bring down post-Demoday funding to 30% and most of them are not going to be helpful. The observation just points out that given their high VC funding rate YC is probably not optimizing for the homeruns as well as it should from a financial perspective.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The solutions you are offering are so general that by following this high-level point of view we can solve world peace, world energy and world poverty and still make the evening tea. Nonsense. I'm talking applied research. There's rock solid, highly developed, high quality education for that called a Ph.D. in applied physics, applied science, applied math, the mathematical sciences, and many fields of engineering.…

Then why aren't you a billionaire yet and why do you need Paul?

If my project is successful, I will be a billionaire, many times over. I have no desire to do that, and really don't want the down side of being that wealthy, and didn't try to pick a project that would make so darned much money, but that's just the way my project looks.

I picked a project using my Steps 1 and 2. So, in Step 1 I picked a big unsolved problem, one that nearly every Internet user, desktop to mobile, wants to have solved and that so far is at best poorly solved. Then I executed my Step 2 and drew from my background in pure and applied math, had some new ideas, wrote out some new theorems and proofs, as my education taught me very well how to do, and then wrote the corresponding software.

At this point what is left to do is not very much quite routine Web site construction and some initial data collection. The rest of the software is ready for at least initial production. I've written successful production software before and for this project had no desire to write 'prototype' software.

But what's crucial about my project is the research, just the research, or Step 2 in my post. All the rest is routine.

The main business risk is, will users like my solution. Why is there a question? Mostly because the UI and UX are different. The UI is much easier to use than anything in, say, Office, but there is still a little for users to do.

Can the solution 'scale'? Apparently. From how my software works, my software timings, and some fairly simple estimating, it appears that my software could serve the world from just 2000 square feet of standard rack space in a room of, say, 20,000 square feet. So, my software is relatively efficient. The needed scaling techniques are just the simplest ones -- lots of parallelism and redundancy and processing mostly read only data with good locality of reference.

For 'needing' Paul, really I'm not trying: I've never applied to a YC 'class' and wouldn't want to be part of one. E.g., I don't have a Mac laptop! And I'm building on Microsoft instead of Linux. And I'm writing in Visual Basic .NET instead of C#! So, my software writing doesn't 'fit in' with the YC or HN 'norms'! And, more importantly, I'm not writing just demo or prototype software. Also, I'm a one-person effort: As founder, I insist on knowing all the early software, and the way for me do to that is just to write it. Besides, I enjoy writing software.

The 'business idea', the research, and the corresponding software were all fast, fun, and easy for me. But learning enough about .NET and SQL Server administration has been a self inflicted root canal procedure bottleneck -- that maybe by now I'm mostly through.

When I get some revenue or equity funding, for more obscure details about Microsoft's software, e.g., when I get to be a big uses of Windows Server and SQL Server, I will just pick up a phone, call a Microsoft expert, and pay. My patience working through MSDN Web pages is drawing to a close. Similarly for boxes I get from Cisco.

So far I am 100% owner. Some venture funding would have helped me a little mostly just because I could have called Microsoft instead of worked through thousands of MSDN Web pages. Also a LOT of venture funding would have let me hire people for all the routine software. Net, so far being 100% owner has likely been for the best.

But in the future there may be a role for some venture funding. But it looks like the 'window' will be short: By the time I qualify for such funding, I should be close to no longer needing or willing to accept it.

But YC doesn't really do venture funding. So, I would not be looking to YC for venture funding. So, my post was not to try to get YC funding.

Instead my post was to try to help Paul with the struggles in project evaluation in his essay. Also, since SV has similar struggles, I was writing to help SV. If someone in SV wants to discuss venture funding soon, then okay, but I doubt they will.

For SV funding my project, from all I can tell there will be no problem if and only if my project is nearly far enough along that I no longer need or will accept funding!

My guess, from contacts with VCs I have had, is that to fund my project now, VCs would have to evaluate my research, which they won't do and would have a tough time doing, and then violate some rules from their limited partners.

So, really my post was to tell PG, YC, SV, VCs, and the LPs that for the few "big wins" they want, they should learn to evaluate research and, then, should do that.

Of course, the SV answer, should they ever actually think that far, would be, if the rest of the software is just a little, routine Web site construction, then that is not too much to ask before looking for equity funding. My response would be, okay, but then you risk trying to get on my airplane after it has already left the ground.

Net, then, my post was really to try to shock SV enough to get them to pay enough attention that maybe I could do them some good on one of their worst problems and not really to get funding for my project.

But I should be worth about $500 million: I helped start FedEx and saved it twice. My offer letter said I'd get stock. Later Fred Smith told me, with Mike Basch, that the amount would be $500,000, and that would be worth ballpark $500 million now. That FedEx wouldn't do what they promised in my offer letter is my loss but their shame. Ah, what the heck: If my project works, then I'll be worth more than Fred Smith anyway.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#160
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hm. do you know where I can read more about them? or is this stuff you know personally? They did seem to grow... very quickly. My impression was that they grew much faster than linode or I. Of course, I have no numbers to back that up either way.

It's public knowledge which I picked up in being an early customer and fan of the company. I think much of the story is summarized here: http://37signals.com/founderstories/slicehost

Interesting. thanks.

I relate to "I have a limited shelf life in a big company" I mean, I'm literally 1/10th the size of slicehost when they were bought, but I have gotten a few companies courting me for a buyout... The thing is, at this point, they want the company for me, and it's pretty clear that I... well, I might stick around for a few years, but working for someone else just isn't what I want to do.

I mean, I can be bought, like anyone, but I imagine that because I know this about myself? I kinda think that my attitude would scare off anyone that might buy us. I mean, to save time, I've actually come up with a formula for how much money I'd want; some lump sum dependent on the size of my company, plus another large sum for every year they want me to work for them, plus another (smaller) sum for every year they want me to avoid competing with them.

I dono. This was mostly to save time; I was hit with two courtships within a relatively short period, and felt I was spending too much effort on it, but eh... I dono. I haven't gotten other nibbles for a while, so it's likely that it's rare enough that time spent on it isn't a huge deal.

I've always taken Linode as the model for where I want to take my company; of course, I've gone off in kindof a different direction; I want to own a network, and a datacenter, while Linode has preferred to have multiple locations. (I mean, it's one or the other.)

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