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Black Swan Farming

paulgraham.com

111–120 of 321 posts

Re: Black Swan Farming

#111
post #101

PG, In part you are correct, but you are making some huge mistakes and, in a saying from my past, are "straining over gnats and forgetting elephants". > That's made harder by the fact that the best startup ideas seem at first like bad ideas. I've written about this before: if a good idea were obviously good, someone else would already have done it. That's likely true from what you and Silicon Valley see, but that's j…

I'm sympathetic to what you are saying, but the DoD bit is the worst part of your argument. The DoD wasn't trying to profitably conduct (or fund) research.

You deliberately misread or need a remedial reading course: I was clear, totally clear, crystal clear: My point was that the DoD research shows that research can be powerful for finding solutions to practical problems.

Your point does not contradict what I wrote and is hardly even relevant.

Also I was totally clear that venture capital might not want to fund research. Instead my point, my recommendation, was that venture capital should consider and evaluate research that has already been done. But in information technology, Sand Hill Road will NOT do that. A-H won't do it. Menlo won't do it. KP won't do it. Sequoia won't do it. Founders's Fund won't do it. Silicon Valley will NOT evaluate research. PERIOD. No wonder their returns suck.

For the DoD, actually, if do some arithmetic on something like ROI, their deployments and even their research look good, MUCH better than Silicon Valley.

Let's take a simple example: If read Richard Rhodes, the atomic bomb project, The Manhattan Project, cost about $3 billion. And there was a LOT of duplication and failed directions. But apparently the Bomb saved about 1 million US casualties by avoiding invading the islands of Japan. So, we're talking $3000 per casualty. We're talking a financial bargain.

Want to do some ROI calculation on, say, GPS? How about the ROI of GPS and laser guided bombs? So, roughly get one bomb to do the work of some power of 10 bombs without GPS and laser guidance.

Want to do some ROI on, say, packet communications networks, i.e., the Internet, and just for the DoD uses?

Again, yet again, my point was that DoD has shown in rock solid terms for over 70 years that research can provide astoundingly powerful solutions to important practical problems. So, in my 'algorithm', the key in Step 2 is just such research, and the DoD has shown that such research is possible.

Just what part of this simple argument is too difficult to understand?

Look, guys, I know that it's possible to dream of typing in some Java, Python, C++, etc. for a social, mobile, sharing, app and hope to get rich. But, PG's essay explained how tough it is to evaluate such work early on, and the averages along Sand Hill Road just SUCK.

But the DoD has done well in essentially my three steps for 70+ years.

Gotta tell you, in broad parts of our economy and technology, what YC and SV use as project evaluations won't pass either the giggle or sniff tests. Instead, projects in applied science and engineering receive careful, detailed evaluation early on and, when a passing grade is given, execute with high success. We're talking dams, bridges, tall buildings, airplanes, and much more. Net, the evaluation techniques of SV are back in the paper airplane days.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#112
post #88
post #18

There's a pretty interesting lesson for potential YC candidates, particularly the ones that get turned down, here. When you interview a startup and think "they seem likely to succeed," it's hard not to fund them. And yet, financially at least, there is only one kind of success: they're either going to be one of the really big winners or not, and if not it doesn't matter whether you fund them, because even if they suc…

> If your startup ends up making you a million dollars a year you will probably be very happy and rightfully call yourself a success. I see this a lot from various corners of the startup ecosystem, particularly 37 Signals and their followers. The problem is that it's not really true, by which I mean there are not very many examples of it begin true, and there is an excellent reason to believe that it may never be tru…

it's really rare to find a lifestyle technology business.

The traditional challenge you'd level here is "Name three" (37signals, Fog Creek, Balsamiq) but, due to the type of people I hang out with, I could get to fifty before having to slow down and start checking my Gmail. A friend of mine who is in the selling shovels business estimated that there are 30,000 firms selling SaaS. (That number struck me as crazy until I realized that, oh yeah, I'm routinely in rooms with several hundred of them at once.) The overwhelming majority will never raise outside capital.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#113
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Dropbox was in the Google category of bad ideas: there were already lots of similar things. Success turned out to depend on execution. Dropbox was the first application of its type that worked sufficiently well. But that sort of thing is hard to predict.

My recollection of Drew's YC app was that it was posted on HN before he applied to YC and it received wide acclaim, so I went and Googled it: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863 Turns out my memory was only half right. DropBox had many people that loved the idea and thought it would revolutionize filesharing. It also had a large number of people who pointed out all the reasons why it wouldn't work. I wonder if t…

[deleted]

Re: Black Swan Farming

#114
"It means the probability of a startup making it really big is not merely not a constant fraction of the probability that it will succeed, but that the startups with a high probability of the former will seem to have a disproportionately low probability of the latter."

The "not merely not" phrase here is a little confusing. What PG is saying is that the probability of it succeeding is inversely related to the probability of it being a big success?

Re: Black Swan Farming

#115
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean it. Have you met either of them? They both seem unstoppable.

It strikes me as smacking of old-school fatalistic "some are born winners" type thinking which is fundamentally contrary to everything we are led to believe about startups (namely; success is a function of smarts, hustle and luck). I have not met either of them. And while I have met a few individuals who have achieved success I can honestly say I have never met anyone who I thought radiated success or was otherwise p…

No matter how much you might wish it, a purely meritocratic system is not possible, not when there are people involved. There will always be subjectivity and biases. SV is more meritocratic than most other industries, and I do believe that most people in SV honestly try to be impartial, but that doesn't actually pan out a lot of the time.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More attacks. No thoughts. WHAT a flock of bird brains.

I think you might have not been down voted as much if you had written less sarcastically and with more practical solutions (versus ideological). The solutions you are offering are so general that by following this high-level point of view we can solve world peace, world energy and world poverty and still make the evening tea. You see HN is mostly a community of "doers", and though the ideas you presented might have m…

> The solutions you are offering are so general that by following this high-level point of view we can solve world peace, world energy and world poverty and still make the evening tea.

Nonsense. I'm talking applied research. There's rock solid, highly developed, high quality education for that called a Ph.D. in applied physics, applied science, applied math, the mathematical sciences, and many fields of engineering. The education is for 'doing' and is fully 'practical'. The shelves of the research libraries are stuffed with peer-reviewed journals of original research with 'applied' and synonyms in the titles. These journals state strongly that they like papers with actual applications. There is nothing too "general" about what I described.

It is true that the HN community and Silicon Valley are short on Ph.D. holders in applied physics, applied science, applied math, engineering, etc. But, as I stated up front, YC is unusually well qualified in these directions.

My post made some rock solid points but was written in a way to raise 'attention' although attacked no one. Instead, I was attacked. Likely the attackers were mostly just HN mods. I've seen such before at HN: There are some strong, secret PC norms sometimes enforced here. Thus HN is nothing like free and open discussion of IDEAS.

PG's essay raised some questions about some pressing issues, and I gave some rock solid answers, and was, thus, attacked. Piss poor.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#117
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had the time, I would do a bunch of research into trying to determine what made Dropbox, Facebook, AirBnB, et al, succeed in their markets. I assume the answer involves the founding teams, but what traits did these founders have that others did not? I don't have the time though, so if any bloggers/journalists are reading, this could be an interesting article, or even book, if you get enough info. Whether or not…

As best I can tell, success = luck * skill. The big successes that I've seen all have exceptional founders, but that's clearly not enough. Timing is a huge component as well. Often a good idea will fail simply because the market or technology isn't ready. My own experience with Gmail reflects some of that. When we decided to write the whole frontend in JS, everyone said that it was a bad idea doomed to failure. It ha…

I am sure that you knew that browsers were finally getting good enough. Getting the timing right is still difficult but it is not pure luck. I suppose you also need some luck (and skill) to convince others that something is now becoming possible. Finding an investor that also sees the opportunity can be hard.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#118
post #29

Quoth pg: It would hurt YC's brand (at least among the innumerate) if we invested in huge numbers of risky startups that flamed out. Paul, you're sounding like a venture capitalist who is worried about whether he can find investors for his next fund. I would posit that the people whose opinions you should care about are potential founders ; and that their primary concern is themselves , not the performance of a fund…

I do care about would-be founders' opinions, but surely I don't have to use every essay I write to convince people to apply to YC. I've already written elsewhere about the founder's eye view of YC (e.g. http://ycombinator.com/atyc.html ). This essay is just an exploration of the strangeness of startup investing as a business. The goal is not to convince anyone to do anything.

"I do care about would-be founders' opinions, but surely I don't have to use every essay I write to convince people to apply to YC."

The essay reminds me a bit of the argument that the Native Americans actually got a great deal when they sold Manhattan for $24, because that money would be worth about $30 trillion today if it had been invested at a return of just 7.5% for the past 385 years. I think it's interesting and worthwhile to explore these sorts of mathematical ideas, but at the same time it's impossible to make good business decisions without fundamentally basing them on human needs, human scales, and human timeframes.

Re: Black Swan Farming

#119
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It strikes me as smacking of old-school fatalistic "some are born winners" type thinking which is fundamentally contrary to everything we are led to believe about startups (namely; success is a function of smarts, hustle and luck). I have not met either of them. And while I have met a few individuals who have achieved success I can honestly say I have never met anyone who I thought radiated success or was otherwise p…

When did he claim they were born that way?

http://paulgraham.com/determination.html

startup founders win [...] more on determination than brains. The simplest form of determination is sheer willfulness. [...] A good deal of willfulness must be inborn

Re: Black Swan Farming

#120
post #12

The counter-intuitive nature of startup investing is a big part of what makes it so interesting to me. In most aspects of life, we are trained to avoid risk and only pursue "good ideas" (e.g. try to be a lawyer, not a rock star). With startups, I get to focus on things that are probably bad ideas, but possibly great ideas. It's not for everyone, but for those of us who love chasing dreams, it can be a great adventure…

Reminds me of this:

"The underlying thesis behind Andreessen Horowitz’s investing strategy is that in any given year only 15 companies will make up more than 90 percent of the returns. So it pays to get into those companies at almost any price."

(Source: http://techonomy.com/2012/08/the-andreessen-horowitz-effect/)

I guess once you figure out who the big winners are going to be, getting in is worth it at basically any cost when the returns are going to be so high. If others aren't comfortable with that much risk, you can win big because the price isn't driven up to expectation, leaving room for more profit.

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