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Kindle Fire HD hurts Microsoft more than Apple

cringely.com

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Re: Kindle Fire HD hurts Microsoft more than Apple

#21

Post by seanmcdirmid »

lmm wrote: post #17
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Innovate on the experience, not just the features dammit! I'm really tired of hearing this refrain that Apple is not innovative because all they do is take existing features and put them into....a package that people can actually use!? But then "isn't that the easy, uncreative, uninnovative part?" Yes, building usable experience is innovation, and yes its very important.

>"isn't that the easy, uncreative, uninnovative part?" Yes, building usable experience is innovation, and yes its very important. If you consider that to be innovation, surely offering an equivalent product at a substantially lower price (as amazon is doing) involves just as much innovation.

Apple innovates on the experience, but they've also refined their supply chain (actually, Cook's main contribution). That is more good engineering than innovation (we can even argue if good engineering is innovation in itself, but its kind of pointless). Amazon has come up with an interesting business model by focusing more on content sales to offset low hardware prices, whereas Apple's thinking is quite the other way (content supports hardware sales, not the other way around!). If you want to call that "innovating on business model", I won't argue with you, but now the term is so diluted that its not very meaningful. My original point was that Apple did a lot of work to bring products to market that were usable and didn't suck, and that is really the innovation that most people acknowledge and notice.

"just as much innovation" is such a weird term, how do you actually measure innovation? At least this isn't another "Apple is successful b/c of their marketing" argument, which is bogus since their marketing budget was (until recently) absurdly low compared to other companies in the same industry.

Re: Kindle Fire HD hurts Microsoft more than Apple

#22

Post by [deleted] »

cooldeal wrote: post #18
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tablet market, at this moment, is going the other way, to include devices that are cheaper, a bit smaller, and more oriented toward pure consumption (Nexus 7, Fire HD, iPad Mini). This market has lower margins but the potential for lots of sales even beyond the iPad today. Now Microsoft comes with Surface (Pro and non-Pro), sounds like they are going after niche high-end tablet markets (those who want Office + a…

New products can and do disrupt market trends, especially in such a huge market. > sounds like they are going after niche high-end tablet markets (those who want Office + a keyboard), , and higher-end tablet markets (though who want to run Visual Studio).Completely opposite direction that at best will be a successful ultra-book. Niche in this market mean at least tens of millions of people. Not to say that the Surfac…

[deleted]

Re: Kindle Fire HD hurts Microsoft more than Apple

#23

Post by seanmcdirmid »

cooldeal wrote: post #18
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tablet market, at this moment, is going the other way, to include devices that are cheaper, a bit smaller, and more oriented toward pure consumption (Nexus 7, Fire HD, iPad Mini). This market has lower margins but the potential for lots of sales even beyond the iPad today. Now Microsoft comes with Surface (Pro and non-Pro), sounds like they are going after niche high-end tablet markets (those who want Office + a…

New products can and do disrupt market trends, especially in such a huge market. > sounds like they are going after niche high-end tablet markets (those who want Office + a keyboard), , and higher-end tablet markets (though who want to run Visual Studio).Completely opposite direction that at best will be a successful ultra-book. Niche in this market mean at least tens of millions of people. Not to say that the Surfac…

The PC market is not growing at any significant level, while the tablet market is exploding. Many analysts out there believe the tablet Of course, you could be right, people could be looking for fuller PC experiences in their tablets, and then Microsoft will win big (and my stock as a MS employee will go up, yeh!). But this trend of going lower price/smaller screen doesn't really indicate that this is happening, although we really have to wait for the iPad mini to see how that really plays out.

Re: Kindle Fire HD hurts Microsoft more than Apple

#24

Post by objclxt »

DaNmarner wrote: post #2

> “if Apple gives up its position” which it clearly hasn’t. so, moot? > Amazon is copying Apple’s playbook, page-by-page... > What, after all, has Amazon (or Microsoft) actually invented here? Nothing. They’ve emulated Apple at a lower price point and to some extent disintermediated the mobile carriers. Not according to Jeff Bezos, who spend a good portion of his presentation explaining how Amazon make money with the…

> Not according to Jeff Bezos, who spend a good portion of his presentation explaining how Amazon make money with their pricing strategy of the Kindles

He may have explained how they want to make money, but I don't recall Amazon or Jeff Bezos ever having stated the Kindle Fire has made them a profit. Indeed, Amazon have been very reluctant to even release hard sales figures for the Kindle Fire.

Re: Kindle Fire HD hurts Microsoft more than Apple

#25

Post by inthewoods »

I disagree - I've been considering buying a tablet just for my kids, and Amazon has put a better option on the table for parents. I can't tell you the number of times I've found my kid browsing some Youtube videos or in the Apple store after being upsold something in the game itself.

So for me - and I expect for other parents if they can get the word out - Amazon is making a play for my Apple business.

Still amazes me that Apple didn't see the kids/children's market and provide a better solution than the restrictions - I mean they are ok, but the lack of separate profiles means I'm constantly tweaking them as I work on the iPad, then my son grabs it, etc.

Re: Kindle Fire HD hurts Microsoft more than Apple

#26

Post by a45l98 »

Cringely is at his most prophetic in the comments when he says: If Facebook drops much lower Microsoft might make a play.

Try to list all the reasons Microsoft should not buy Facebook.

Try to list all the reasons Facebook would resist acquisition by Microsoft.

Re: Kindle Fire HD hurts Microsoft more than Apple

#27

Post by a45l98 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #21
lmm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"isn't that the easy, uncreative, uninnovative part?" Yes, building usable experience is innovation, and yes its very important. If you consider that to be innovation, surely offering an equivalent product at a substantially lower price (as amazon is doing) involves just as much innovation.

Apple innovates on the experience, but they've also refined their supply chain (actually, Cook's main contribution). That is more good engineering than innovation (we can even argue if good engineering is innovation in itself, but its kind of pointless). Amazon has come up with an interesting business model by focusing more on content sales to offset low hardware prices, whereas Apple's thinking is quite the other wa…

"their marketing budget is extremely low compared to others in the same industry"

Any pointers to the figures?

Apple's marketing seems unlike any other hardware manufacturer I can think of. But maybe that's just my perception. When you're watching a film and the camera makes a special pan around a laptop to show the Apple logo, it's hard not to think "This hardware company really puts a lot of effort into marketing. This is not your ordinary hardware company." I have seen Dell do this sort of product placement on occasion, but nobody seems to do it to the extent Apple does.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. To discount the amount of Apple marketing and its effects as "standard for the industry" or even below standard seems a little like willful blindness.

Re: Kindle Fire HD hurts Microsoft more than Apple

#28

Post by seanmcdirmid »

a45l98 wrote: post #27
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple innovates on the experience, but they've also refined their supply chain (actually, Cook's main contribution). That is more good engineering than innovation (we can even argue if good engineering is innovation in itself, but its kind of pointless). Amazon has come up with an interesting business model by focusing more on content sales to offset low hardware prices, whereas Apple's thinking is quite the other wa…

"their marketing budget is extremely low compared to others in the same industry" Any pointers to the figures? Apple's marketing seems unlike any other hardware manufacturer I can think of. But maybe that's just my perception. When you're watching a film and the camera makes a special pan around a laptop to show the Apple logo, it's hard not to think "This hardware company really puts a lot of effort into marketing.…

http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/27/apple-ad-spending/ quote "And while $691 million may seem like a massive amount of money, it’s still less than half of what Microsoft spent on advertising last year. And it’s less than what Dell spent last year."

I'm not sure what the case is like today, I'm sure its gone up a bit but would be surprised if they surpass Microsoft yet. Apple doesn't pay for product placements; see http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-05-10/apple-the-ot... quote "The cast’s (Gossip Girl's) sudden conversion cost the Cupertino (Calif.)-based iPhone maker nothing. Apple has spent decades strengthening its subtle but powerful grip over Hollywood, and unlike many companies, says it never pays for its products to appear on television or in movies."

Apple doesn't SPEND much on marketing, but the marketing done is incredibly effective. Turns out, just having the best product makes the job much easier.

Re: Kindle Fire HD hurts Microsoft more than Apple

#29

Post by rbanffy »

cooldeal wrote: post #8

>The tablet market was already broadening, flattening, and moving down market before yesterday’s Amazon announcement Right, but Microsoft is trying to bring it up market with the Surface Pro and other small x86 tablets(many of which seem to come with a keyboard or a laptop style dock, sometimes optional). Eg. see http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/30/hp-envy-x2-laptop-tablet-... As I posted in another comment a few days…

Microsoft, it seems, will never learn it's not about adding features, but solving a problem better than your competitors. That, more often than not, is about removing the bad stuff, not adding even more bells and whistles.

Re: Kindle Fire HD hurts Microsoft more than Apple

#30

Post by a45l98 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #28
a45l98 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"their marketing budget is extremely low compared to others in the same industry" Any pointers to the figures? Apple's marketing seems unlike any other hardware manufacturer I can think of. But maybe that's just my perception. When you're watching a film and the camera makes a special pan around a laptop to show the Apple logo, it's hard not to think "This hardware company really puts a lot of effort into marketing.…

http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/27/apple-ad-spending/ quote "And while $691 million may seem like a massive amount of money, it’s still less than half of what Microsoft spent on advertising last year. And it’s less than what Dell spent last year." I'm not sure what the case is like today, I'm sure its gone up a bit but would be surprised if they surpass Microsoft yet. Apple doesn't pay for product placements; see http:…

"Turns out, just having the best product..."

This is why Apple gets a bad rap in the forums. Who would say that that about their computer (except a Linux weenie)? The reality is these are cheap electronics in a hermetically sealed but stylish enclosure that use publicly available OS configured for dummies. So simple is the design they can be used by lower primates.

I like Apple hardware, it continues to look good after all these years, but comments "Turns out, having the best product..." make me like it a lot less. Apple is attracting some brainless users and will be catering to them more and more. This is not good.

Maybe this userbase explains the product placements. Hollywood wants to convey a sense that a character is not the type of person that would know anything about computers, hence she uses Apple products.

Touche.

And thanks for the links.

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