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Vibe coding creates a bus factor of zero

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Re: Vibe coding creates a bus factor of zero

#41

Post by AlienRobot »

p1necone wrote: post #16

If you're using llms to shit out large swathes of unreviewed code you're doing it wrong and your project is indeed doomed to become unmaintainable the minute it goes down a wrong path architecturally, or you get a bug with complex causes or whatever. Where llms excel is in situations like: * I have that I want to apply to - bam, half a days work done in 2 minutes. * I want to set up test data and the bones of unit te…

Scaffolding is another area where LLM's work great.

I want to create a new project using framework XYZ. I already know how to do it, but I don't remember how to set up it since I only do that once, or I don't know how to set up a class that inherits from the framework because I usually just copy the other from another class in the same project. I can simply tell the bot to write the starting code and take it from there.

The sad thing is for a LOT of use cases an LLM is completely unnecessary. Like why do I even need an LLM for something like this? Why can't I just download a database of code examples, plug it into a search engine that apppears in the sidebar, and then just type "new project XYZ" or "new class XYZ.foo" to find the necessary snippet? A lot of NPM frameworks have a set up script to get you started with a new project, but after that you are practically forced to use Google.

It's crazy that a problem that could be solved so easily with a local file search has been ignored for so long and the only solution has been something impossibly inefficient for the problem it's supposed to solve.

Re: Vibe coding creates a bus factor of zero

#42

Post by dymk »

layer8 wrote: post #32
p1necone wrote: post #16

If you're using llms to shit out large swathes of unreviewed code you're doing it wrong and your project is indeed doomed to become unmaintainable the minute it goes down a wrong path architecturally, or you get a bug with complex causes or whatever. Where llms excel is in situations like: * I have that I want to apply to - bam, half a days work done in 2 minutes. * I want to set up test data and the bones of unit te…

> If you're using llms to shit out large swathes of unreviewed code you're doing it wrong > bam, x days work done in 2 minutes This is a bit of a misrepresentation, since those two minutes don’t account for the reviewing time needed (nor prorperly, which vastly exceeds that time. Otherwise you end up in the situation of “doing it wrong” described in your first paragraph.

It’s not a misrepresentation, they’re saying the time it would take to write the code has been reduced to two minutes, not the reviewing and everything else (which still takes just as long)

Re: Vibe coding creates a bus factor of zero

#43

Post by p1necone »

layer8 wrote: post #32
p1necone wrote: post #16

If you're using llms to shit out large swathes of unreviewed code you're doing it wrong and your project is indeed doomed to become unmaintainable the minute it goes down a wrong path architecturally, or you get a bug with complex causes or whatever. Where llms excel is in situations like: * I have that I want to apply to - bam, half a days work done in 2 minutes. * I want to set up test data and the bones of unit te…

> If you're using llms to shit out large swathes of unreviewed code you're doing it wrong > bam, x days work done in 2 minutes This is a bit of a misrepresentation, since those two minutes don’t account for the reviewing time needed (nor prorperly, which vastly exceeds that time. Otherwise you end up in the situation of “doing it wrong” described in your first paragraph.

The implication with that example was it's some editor thing for use during the dev process separate from the actual product, so it doesn't matter if it's disposable and unmaintainable as long as it does the thing you needed it for. If the tool becomes an integral part of your workflow later on you stop and do it properly the second time around.

Re: Vibe coding creates a bus factor of zero

#44

Post by seba_dos1 »

dymk wrote: post #42
layer8 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're using llms to shit out large swathes of unreviewed code you're doing it wrong > bam, x days work done in 2 minutes This is a bit of a misrepresentation, since those two minutes don’t account for the reviewing time needed (nor prorperly, which vastly exceeds that time. Otherwise you end up in the situation of “doing it wrong” described in your first paragraph.

It’s not a misrepresentation, they’re saying the time it would take to write the code has been reduced to two minutes, not the reviewing and everything else (which still takes just as long)

Reviewing the code you didn't write takes much longer than the one you did.

Re: Vibe coding creates a bus factor of zero

#45

Post by windows2020 »

getnormality wrote: post #21

This guy thinks bus factors of zero started with ChatGPT. Hahahahahaha. Adorable. How many of you have asked about a process and been told that nobody knows how it works because the person who developed it left the company? There was a blog post at the top of HN about this, like, yesterday. I hate the current AI hype hothouse and everything it seems to be doing to the industry... but I couldn't help but laugh. The po…

The difference is this isn't some legacy system that still exists a decade later. It's brand new with the tag still on. And it wasn't designed by a conscious being but by probability.

I've seen from beautiful to crazy legacy systems in various domains. But when I encounter something off, there appears to always be a story. Not so much with LLMs.

It got hit by a bus before it was born.

Re: Vibe coding creates a bus factor of zero

#47

Post by [deleted] »

siliconc0w wrote: post #40

The problem is that our brains really don't like expending calories on information we don't repeatedly use so the further you get from something, the less you understand it or remember it. So even if you aren't even vibe coding and are trying to review every change, your skills are atrophying. We see this all the time as engineers enter management, they become super competent at the new skills the role requires but q…

[deleted]

Re: Vibe coding creates a bus factor of zero

#48

Post by TuringNYC »

The Bus Factor was an issue long before LLM-generated code. Very few companies structure work to allow a pool of >1 individuals to understand/contribute to it. What I found is -- when companies are well structured with multiple smart individuals per area, the output expectation just ends up creeping up until again there is too much to really know. You can only get away from this with really good engineering management that specifically tries to move people around the codebase and trade-off speed in the process. I have tried to do this, but sometimes pressure from the stakeholders for speed is just too great to do it perfectly.

Shameful plug, i've been writing a book on this with my retrospective as a CTO building like this. I just updated it so you can choose your price (even $0) to make this a less shameful plug on HN: https://ctoretrospective.gumroad.com/l/own-your-system

I dont think anyone has the perfect answer, yet, but LLM-built systems arent that different from having the system built by 10 diff people on eLance/Upwork/Fiverr...so the principles are the same.

Re: Vibe coding creates a bus factor of zero

#49

Post by appease7727 »

layer8 wrote: post #32
p1necone wrote: post #16

If you're using llms to shit out large swathes of unreviewed code you're doing it wrong and your project is indeed doomed to become unmaintainable the minute it goes down a wrong path architecturally, or you get a bug with complex causes or whatever. Where llms excel is in situations like: * I have that I want to apply to - bam, half a days work done in 2 minutes. * I want to set up test data and the bones of unit te…

> If you're using llms to shit out large swathes of unreviewed code you're doing it wrong > bam, x days work done in 2 minutes This is a bit of a misrepresentation, since those two minutes don’t account for the reviewing time needed (nor prorperly, which vastly exceeds that time. Otherwise you end up in the situation of “doing it wrong” described in your first paragraph.

Most of these cases don't require "review". It either works or it doesn't.

If you have an LLM transform a big pile of structs, you plug them into your program and it will either compile or it won't.

All programmers write countless one-off throwaway scripts. I can't tell you how many times I've written scripts to generate boring boilerplate code.

How many hours do you spend reviewing such tools and their output? I'll bet anything it's just about zero.

Re: Vibe coding creates a bus factor of zero

#50

Post by shusaku »

I’ve got a new project I’ve been handling with Claude code. Up until now I’ve always pair coded with AIs, so I would know (and usually tweak) every bit of code generated. Now with the agent, it’s easy to miss what’s being made.

Ive been trying to resolve this with things like “make a notebook that walks through this modules functions”, etc, to make it easier for me to review.

In the spirit of literate riding though, why but have these agents spend more time (tokens…money) walking you through what they made.

Likewise, if dev A vibe codes something and leaves it to dev B to maintain, we should think about what AI workflows can get B up to speed fast. “Give me a tour of the code”

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