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Zed for Windows: What's Taking So Long?

zed.dev

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Re: Zed for Windows: What's Taking So Long?

#31
post #4

This is why you don’t make your own cross platform toolkit.

The FOSS community has become full of ideological landmines, with projects now including clauses in their requirements, often vague and ill defined, about how those who build upon their projects must act and believe. As a result, some are now finding it less risky to roll their own base dependencies instead of using someone else's project that could at any time become problematic for non-technical reasons. While I do…

I can see "ill defined" causing problems. But isn't an explicit code of conduct more defined than none? (Assuming I'm reading that correctly from your comment.)

There aren't too many epithets floating around that offend me specifically. And I haven't heard anyone say I shouldn't/don't exist. So it's hard for me personally to feel the need for CoC and the like. But I'm all for policy that protects everyone against that kind of abuse -- which seems to be on the rise. Are there better alternatives?

Re: Zed for Windows: What's Taking So Long?

#32
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about the customer base: the sorts of users who want a high-performance text editor are exactly the kind of people who will run Windows 7 until it's pried from their cold, dead fingers, and who will flood the support forums with complaints if you limit support to operating systems released in the last 15 years. Because of their target market, Zed probably has implicit support requirements which wouldn't apply t…

Similarly, the Mac version is for MacOS 10.15 (from 2019) or later, and has an x64 version.

Zed had already targeted macOS when 10.15 still had over a year of support left https://github.com/zed-industries/zed/commit/b400449a58507cc... and some variant of x86-64 macOS will still be supported through 2028. Neither of these were adding support for really old things, one is current for many years to come and just there hasn't been a reason to break 10.15 support yet so why bother.

Meanwhile Windows 7 is already over 2 years past the end of extra-extended support at the time this new code was written with Windows 7 support still in mind. Which is nice, but a very different scenario.

Re: Zed for Windows: What's Taking So Long?

#33
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd rather see another crappy, slow editor packaging an entire browser? Because that seems like what people are using for "cross platform toolkits" these days. I'm glad Zed is being ambitious, it's truly a joy to use because it feels native. And to be honest, it's Windows, who cares. If you are a developer you should have switched to Linux years ago anyway.

No, there are good reasons developers are on Windows. Industrial and embedded systems are very often Windows-based, for better or worse. Heaps of games are developed on Windows. Windows-based software itself is developed on Windows.

> Industrial and embedded systems are very often Windows-based

I find Windows to be the outlier against a sea of embedded Linux devices.

> Heaps of games are developed on Windows

Inertia.

> Windows-based software itself is developed on Windows.

Plenty of Windows-based software is developed on Linux with Wine.

Re: Zed for Windows: What's Taking So Long?

#34

I’m sure this is a dumb question, but why does a code editor need to render on the GPU like a video game? Is it just for niceties like smooth scrolling?

> but why does a code editor need to render on the GPU like a video game?

It isn't just text editors—nowadays, everything renders on your GPU, even your desktop and terminal (unless you're on a tty). For example, at the bottom of Chromium, Electron, and Avalonia's graphics stack is Skia, which is a cross-platform GPU-accelerated windowing and 2D graphics library.

GPU compositing is what allows transparency, glass effects, shadowing, and it makes actually writing these programs much easier, as everything is the same interface and uses the same rendering pipeline as everything else.

A window in front of another, or a window partially outside the display? No big deal, just set the 3D coordinates, width, and height correctly for each window, and the GPU will do hidden-surface removal and viewing frustum clipping automatically and for free, no need for any sorting. Want a 'preview' of the live contents of each window in a task bar or during Alt-Tab, like on Windows 7? No problem, render each window to a texture and sample it in the taskbar panels' smaller viewports. Want to scale or otherwise squeeze/manipulate the contents of each window during minimise/maximise, like macOS does? Easy, write a shader.

This was a big deal in the early 2000s when GPUs finally had enough raw compute to always run everything, and basically every single OS and compositor switched to GPU rendering roughly in the same timeline—Quartz Extreme on Mac OS X, DWM.exe on Windows, and Linux's variety of compositors, including KWin, Compiz, and more.

There's a reason OSs from that time frame had so many glassy, funky effects—this was primarily to show off just how advanced their GPU-powered compositors were, and this was also a big reason why Windows Vista fell so hard on its face—its compositor was especially hard on the scrawny integrated GPUs of the time, enough that two themes—Aero Basic, and Aero Glass—had to be released for different GPUs.

Re: Zed for Windows: What's Taking So Long?

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there are good reasons developers are on Windows. Industrial and embedded systems are very often Windows-based, for better or worse. Heaps of games are developed on Windows. Windows-based software itself is developed on Windows.

> Industrial and embedded systems are very often Windows-based I find Windows to be the outlier against a sea of embedded Linux devices. > Heaps of games are developed on Windows Inertia. > Windows-based software itself is developed on Windows. Plenty of Windows-based software is developed on Linux with Wine.

> I find Windows to be the outlier against a sea of embedded Linux devices.

I think you're thinking of consumer devices, not industrial.

> Inertia.

I think that's a tough case to make. Windows offers legitimate technical advantages for gaming and game development. Integration with large vendors' tooling like NVIDIA and AMD is pretty huge. There are real workflow benefits.

> Windows-based software itself is developed on Windows.

You know more about this than I do. That sounds kind of wild to me, like it could be a pretty awful work flow at times for no good reason. It looks like you don't have access to native debugging tools and Wine itself introduces potential compatibility risks. I would rather just develop on target, personally

Re: Zed for Windows: What's Taking So Long?

#36
post #20
post #4

This is why you don’t make your own cross platform toolkit.

You'd rather see another crappy, slow editor packaging an entire browser? Because that seems like what people are using for "cross platform toolkits" these days. I'm glad Zed is being ambitious, it's truly a joy to use because it feels native. And to be honest, it's Windows, who cares. If you are a developer you should have switched to Linux years ago anyway.

> If you are a developer you should have switched to Linux years ago anyway.

This is so often repeated, but I genuinely don't understand why. Could you try selling me on it? I ended up going the sysadmin/devops route instead after college, but the more I learn about Linux, the less I understand why anyone would choose it for personal, active manual use.

I can understand server deployments, it works well enough. It's available at no cost, Windows Server is way out in the far other end in terms of current desired behavior, and whatever pains it has you get paid to make up for. None of which applies on a personal device level.

The most common selling points I see are more performance and less "spying". I find neither of these very persuasive, and I'm not interested in ideological rationales either (supporting free software). If you have anything else, I'm all ears.

Re: Zed for Windows: What's Taking So Long?

#37
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there are good reasons developers are on Windows. Industrial and embedded systems are very often Windows-based, for better or worse. Heaps of games are developed on Windows. Windows-based software itself is developed on Windows.

Being ~2 weeks into migrating from Windows to Linux for my dev machine, there are a lot of good reasons why people use Windows, and I keep learning more each and every day! From a lock screen that appears ~3 seconds after my desktop does (during which time I can interact with my desktop...) to getting Nvidia GPU passthrough working in Docker being harder running on Linux natively than what it was making it work on WL…

> to Nvidia GPU passthrough working in Docker being harder running on Linux natively than what it was making it work on WLS

To be fair, assuming you're using WSL2, you're running docker on a VM, so it doesn't sound that crazy that it might be more work without the abstraction around the hardware that defines. If there were a built-in VM for your Linux distro, it might end up being easier to expose the GPU through that to things running on it than directly too. I can't say I've ever had any need to access a GPU from a container running on a VM then, so this is just conjecture.

Re: Zed for Windows: What's Taking So Long?

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there are good reasons developers are on Windows. Industrial and embedded systems are very often Windows-based, for better or worse. Heaps of games are developed on Windows. Windows-based software itself is developed on Windows.

> Industrial and embedded systems are very often Windows-based I find Windows to be the outlier against a sea of embedded Linux devices. > Heaps of games are developed on Windows Inertia. > Windows-based software itself is developed on Windows. Plenty of Windows-based software is developed on Linux with Wine.

> Plenty of Windows-based software is developed on Linux with Wine

The overwhelming majority of software written against MinGW (or worse, Cygwin) are bad/lazy ports of Linux-first software. Case in point: Git and Perl, both of which drag along an entire coreutils ecosystem (each, so you have two copies of `ls`) along with the main binaries.

First-class Windows programs that are used every day like Office, Chromium and its forks, the Adobe suite, and tons and tons of internal administrative programs for HR, inventory, and more are written on Windows, for Windows, using C# or C++ and 'boring', so-called enterprisey frameworks like WPF, Windows Forms, and WinUI 2.

Anyone remotely serious about taking advantage of the large (albeit shrinking) market share of Windows users should at the very least fire up a VM to test their release binaries, rather than just 'use Wine'.

Re: Zed for Windows: What's Taking So Long?

#39
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd rather see another crappy, slow editor packaging an entire browser? Because that seems like what people are using for "cross platform toolkits" these days. I'm glad Zed is being ambitious, it's truly a joy to use because it feels native. And to be honest, it's Windows, who cares. If you are a developer you should have switched to Linux years ago anyway.

> If you are a developer you should have switched to Linux years ago anyway. This is so often repeated, but I genuinely don't understand why. Could you try selling me on it? I ended up going the sysadmin/devops route instead after college, but the more I learn about Linux, the less I understand why anyone would choose it for personal, active manual use. I can understand server deployments, it works well enough. It's…

Not selling you on it, as I find that, if you're using IDEs, OSes don't really matter. And windows can be actually beneficial as you'll get prime support from most vendors. Where Unix shine is adhoc automation. Almost everything is fully hackable and that makes some solution easier to implement.

As in case for the desktop, you can switch out your audio stack, alter the display of any element and many other things. Using windows is borrowing some shoes while Linux can be your favorite slipper.

Re: Zed for Windows: What's Taking So Long?

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are a developer you should have switched to Linux years ago anyway. This is so often repeated, but I genuinely don't understand why. Could you try selling me on it? I ended up going the sysadmin/devops route instead after college, but the more I learn about Linux, the less I understand why anyone would choose it for personal, active manual use. I can understand server deployments, it works well enough. It's…

Not selling you on it, as I find that, if you're using IDEs, OSes don't really matter. And windows can be actually beneficial as you'll get prime support from most vendors. Where Unix shine is adhoc automation. Almost everything is fully hackable and that makes some solution easier to implement. As in case for the desktop, you can switch out your audio stack, alter the display of any element and many other things. Us…

Do you have any easy automations in mind that would be broadly appealing and one really needs to go out of their way to implement on Windows / is impossible to do so?

I have a few things here and there, but it's more a scheduled script or two than anything more elaborate, and I don't think they were difficult to make and deploy.

> you can switch out your audio stack

Why would I want that? Isn't this more for someone doing live audio production (e.g. due to latency concerns)?

In general, the customizability angle is also another that doesn't resonate with me much. It's less that I want to customize my stuff, and more that I want my stuff to be to my liking from the get-go.

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