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Russia in color, a century ago

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Re: Russia in color, a century ago

#141
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of being pedantic, I'll explain it too you in another level of detail. First, lets backup though. shawnc 19 hours ago | link | parent | flag These are so amazing. The world wasn't sepia toned a hundred years ago! As silly as that statement is, my brain is actually having a hard time really believing these photos are from 100 years ago. I'm in awe. OK. This was the original statement. The somewhat minor bu…

Alrighty then. I know something about color theory. I even know some arcania, such as the fact that the X and Y coordinates of the XYZ color space are on the projective plane and that the XYZ color space contains non-existent colors. Let me be a bit pedantic about psychology, though: shawnc never really believed that the world was sepia-toned a hundred years ago. He was just expressing amazement due the "uncanny vall…

Good, I don't think we are disagreeing then.

My first note was really simple, just highlighting for HN how and why this was going on. Its here for refenence. The notes were just to avoid saying more. =D guess that didn't work out so well...There was a nother thread on these images a couple years ago too, nobody mentioned this.

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001sky 16 hours ago | link | parent

these photos are from 100 years ago.

This is the work of 21st century photoshop.[1,2,3]

Re: Russia in color, a century ago

#142
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand how this type of color photography works, as does anyone who read the article, since the article explained it. It's basically the same as Technicolor, which was invented only a few years after these photos were taken. Though Technicolor was only shot using two colors rather than three until the early '30s. But all color photography has typically worked by effectively taking three monochromatic images and…

I understand how this type of color photography works, as does anyone who read the article, since the article explained it. It's basically the same as Technicolor That sentence says, no you don't understand. The images are monochromes, set with chemistry. 100yrs ago. Then they are scanned into a computer. Imported into photoshop. The color is from photoshop. The working color space is from photoshop. The output color…

These images do not look like Photoshop. The color gamut of the original negatives would probably be outside of the gamut of RGB. What has happened in post-processing is that the contrast and saturation have been exaggerated (is it too much, is that all you're really saying?). I've pulled some of these very same images into Photoshop and reconstituted them into color images.

What you've described in so many words is quite simple. These are three color channels, overlaid on each other (Photoshop makes auto-aligned layers very easy).

That's it. And basically that's what the three lens lantern projector that Prokudin-Gorsky used to present his images did.

The original source images, due to their being recorded on plates or film, probably have a wider gamut, due to the greater latitude of the analog medium, that most of the digital cameras produced today.

While we can't say for certain that this post-production has yielded an image of reality that corresponds exactly to the colors and lighting of those scenes 100+ years ago, grass is only so green, some historic dress survives, and there are archivists who study the deterioration of dyes, and while I don't know if the aspect of clothing has been studied in the production of these images, how can you say that these images are not an impressive reconstruction?

Basically, your argument boils down to this point. It's as if there were an ancient sculpture in three pieces. Researchers glued those three pieces together. You're bitching about the fact they used modern tools to put them together.

If you were to take these lantern slides and project them in the very same projector used by Prokudin-Gorsky onto a wall, I think you complain when a digital photograph was taken of them and displayed on the Internet. You are looking for things to nit-pick about.

What you haven't demonstrated an understanding of is how color film has always worked, since the very beginnings in experiments by Maxwell. There are layers of monochrome film, because that's what a sensitized silver emulsion is, is monochrome, there is none other. Above each of these layers of monochrome emulsion are dyes acting as filters, generally three, which filter all but 1/3 of the spectrum, giving us a red layer, a green layer and a blue layer. The film when processed removes the dyes which didn't get exposed (or did, depending on whether it's print or reversal film).

Digital cameras are the same, there is a light sensitive layer, which again, is entirely monochrome, sensitive to all frequencies of light. Above this layer is a layer of filters, called an Bayer array, which is two parts green, 1 part red, 1 part blue. Each light sensitive site has a filter of some color sitting over it. When the sensor is exposed and read out, the camera software processes it into a true color image by interpolating the color information onto adjacent pixels (demosaicing).

Finally, what you fail to demonstrate is why we should care where the color space and tonal separation come from. These images weren't shot on an overcast day, there's plenty of contrast present in most of these images, as they were shot on sunny days. Film emulsions in 1900 weren't very fast, the equivalent of ISO 25 or slower. You can get an idea of the duration of the exposure by looking at the silkiness of the water in the photos that were shot near water.

What I keep coming back to in my mind, is why you think that being produced in Photoshop diminishes or alters the reality of these scenes.

I too am sick of seeing candified images with off-the-charts color saturation, produced that way just because it can be, because colorfulness is compelling.

I don't think the images fit the definition of over-colorful. It would surprise me that the Library of Congress, whose mission is the archival of material, would make no allowance for the accuracy of the colors presented, however I see no allusion to the research, so perhaps these bear no resemblance to reality. These images come close enough that a contemporary viewer would be awed by them, and a modern viewer can better appreciate and understand the world which bore them. It takes true artistry to convey emotion with a monochrome image, so I'm glad we have these color images to convey more of the feeling of life in that era.

Re: Russia in color, a century ago

#143
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure he was able to view them well using a projector. Displays like that were the initial purpose of photography like this. Positives of these would have overlapped to make up the same images you see here. By the way, I think it's sort of a shame to even compare smartphone digital photos to film photography. Of course they look better.

> Of course they look better. Why?

Part of the reason is because the glass plates the images were photographed on are relatively large. The glass plate was 3inches by 9inches, meaning each image was approximately 3x3. This is somewhat larger (about 80% more area 9 sq in vs 5 sq in) than medium format film and about 8 times the size of 35mm film. While it's generally accepted that 35mm is "dead", it's still being debated whether digital has surpassed medium format.

Take a look at shorpy http://www.shorpy.com/ sometime. They have medium-res scans of full glass plates (8x10, 80 sq inches) and you can see the level of detail that a large negative captures. A full scan of the plate, capturing every transition between dark and light (line pair) would surely be in the hundreds of megapixels.

In fact you can see that many of these images are limited not by the resolution of the plate, but the lens technology (the corners of the images are often blurred, and lens imperfection called coma)

Re: Russia in color, a century ago

#144
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand all of that, and none of that contradicts anything I've said. Technicolor starts with three monochrome images on black and white silver negative film, just as these images started. So once we have the negatives, Technicolor uses a chemical process to do dye transfer, while these images were creating using scanning and computers to achieve the same goal. So what? We already knew this, of course. Or are yo…

At the risk of being pedantic, I'll explain it too you in another level of detail. First, lets backup though. shawnc 19 hours ago | link | parent | flag These are so amazing. The world wasn't sepia toned a hundred years ago! As silly as that statement is, my brain is actually having a hard time really believing these photos are from 100 years ago. I'm in awe. OK. This was the original statement. The somewhat minor bu…

> None of the film emulsions (prior to NC portra) really give you a contemporary look. To get that, you have to bring the image into digital.

I went back and had a look at the photos, and you do have a point. The ones that are most striking to me, though, have--to my eyes, at least--an HD video look to them, not a Photoshop look. And that's one thing that's striking about them to me: They look so immediate and real, like they were shot yesterday. This property is something we've been trained to associate with video.

On the other hand, I think that these photos would have been nearly as striking if they had been rendered in Kodachrome style or classic Technicolor style. To our modern minds, there is no age-appropriate color style for photographs that are 100 years old, since we never see such a thing.

In fact, whenever I see well-preserved color movies from the any time before the sixties I get the "uncanny valley" feeling, since most everything filmed before then was done so in black and white, or on crappy non-Technicolor film where the color barely survived. It's definitely still a little bit of shock whenever I've seen The Wizard of Oz, just because classic Technicolor weathered so well, and you just don't expect to see something from 1939 with beautiful, saturated, unfaded color.

Re: Russia in color, a century ago

#145
post #88
post #77

I notice they have a picture of Tblisi ( http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bi... ) , which is now in Georgia (not Russia). Tblisi is a rather beautiful looking place, here is a recent picture from almost the same place http://www.experience.hk/wp-content/uploads/Tbilisi-4.jpg

It is amazing how many trees have grown back.

I don't think they grew back; they are probably the result of modern irrigation.

Re: Russia in color, a century ago

#148
post #8

No one is smiling. Not even the kids. Maybe the woman in #20 is, who knows? I know in general 'old time' photos didn't have people smiling much - very posed pictures and stoic expressions. I wonder if they had any idea how much this would color our impression of them 100+ years later?

Not just on Russian photographs. Dig up your grand-grand-parent photos and have a look - same expressions. It probably stems from the need to pose for photographs in daguerreotype times, back when they sat you in a chair and hold your head with a clamp, all because of an insanely long exposure that was required. Do that for 20-30 years and a somber expression on the photograms becomes a social norm, even if the technology moves forward.

Re: Russia in color, a century ago

#149
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think smiling for a photograph must be some sort of social training that humans either take to or don't. I, for example, still find it very difficult and unnatural to smile for photographs unless I am already smiling about something else and the picture is just a candid moment caught at that time. I would imagine that this old picture taking process (3 separate pictures with different filters each time) took quite…

reminds me of the story (not sure if it is true or not) of how the telephone revolutionised the world - prior to that, you had to be introduced to someone by a third party before you could speak to them; subsequent to the telephone the word 'hello' was invented. Or so the story goes

That's interesting, I never thought about that. It must've taken a great deal of willpower to not want to know everything about every new person you would talk to on other end of the line.

I imagine this would've been my first conversation with a random receptionist that's just trying to patch my call through: "Hello! We are speaking on the telephone! How's the weather over there!?"

Following that train of thought, I don't really remember my first time using the telephone, although I'm sure I was yelling the whole time.

Re: Russia in color, a century ago

#150

The locations of these photos are pretty significant to the etymologies of many groups of people, spanning from modern day Turks, Koreans, Japanese, and even Native Americans. (at least some people have proposed this). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages

Can you be more clear? Because I see a lot of photos from caucasus, urals, middle east and not much Siberia.
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