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Forklifts require training

zacsweers.dev

21–30 of 45 posts

Re: Forklifts require training

#21
I liked the article.

But does this count as misleading title? I really expected an article about literal forklifts. Among all the AI craze these days, I was hoping for some real-world hands-on skill insights. The kind of thing hackers often can describe really well.

From that perspective, I got disppointed.

TL;DR: The article is about junior developers having a hard time in the current conditions shaped by remote work, AI and an abandoned Twitter.

Re: Forklifts require training

#22

Possible futures in my mind: - Junior jobs become scarce. You either jump to senior very fast, or you are dumped out of the industry. The juniors that make it are those special unicorns that somehow learn everything about the job, including how to do it with AI, within a couple of years. There's a little bit of guidance, but mostly it's the kids who have good taste in blogs/books/videos that end up learning it all on…

Perhaps all-of-the-above:

Universities will (still) teach only part of the necessary tradecraft, but that fraction will include some basics for how LLMs can churn out dodgy prototypes. Junior/introductory roles will feature the crap-work of taking excel-esque monstrosities and making them marginally less-terrible.

Re: Forklifts require training

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Honestly my advice to a junior dev right now would be: 1) Keep up with the trends by reading hacker news. Be on the lookout for decent blog posts but ignore social media and most of youtube. 2) BUT your best bet for actually leveling up is reading these ten books I'll give you (Designing Data-Intensive Applications, etc. etc.), plus doing side projects to get hands-on practice.

> BUT your best bet for actually leveling up is reading these ten books I'll give you On the whole, junior dev-age people don't read books much. They read short-form stuff on screens.

The question was how to learn, the answer (one answer) was read a few specific known-good books.

"new devs don't read" is a non-sequitur imo.

If they want the info, they will, or not. The info is there. Take it, don't take it, what do we care either way?

Re: Forklifts require training

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Honestly my advice to a junior dev right now would be: 1) Keep up with the trends by reading hacker news. Be on the lookout for decent blog posts but ignore social media and most of youtube. 2) BUT your best bet for actually leveling up is reading these ten books I'll give you (Designing Data-Intensive Applications, etc. etc.), plus doing side projects to get hands-on practice.

>these ten books I'll give you (Designing Data-Intensive Applications, etc. etc.) Well don't leave me hanging boss!

I left it open-ended because it would somewhat depend on the junior developer's previous knowledge and their focus (do they have a CS degree? what topics do they want to go deep on in their career?)

But here are some titles:

* Kleppmann, Designing Data-Intensive Applications

* Nand2Tetris. Computers from first principles, often fills in a lot of gaps. Possibly preceded by Code: The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software if they need even more grounding.

* SICP if I think they'd be ready for it

* Crafting Interpreters

* If they're working with Python I'd give them Fluent Python by Luciano Ramalho. For whatever other language(s) pick a book that allows them to go from intermediate to advanced in that language and really understand it inside out.

* Ousterhout, A Philosophy of Software Design

* Data and Reality

* The Staff Engineer’s Path by Tanya Reilly to demystify the upper IC track. Or The Manager's Path by Camille Fournier.

Re: Forklifts require training

#25
> I think junior developers shouldn't generate production code with AI.

> Other AI tools are fair game ("explain this code", "generate docs", "generate tests", etc.)

I disagree. Tests are production code.

Re: Forklifts require training

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Honestly my advice to a junior dev right now would be: 1) Keep up with the trends by reading hacker news. Be on the lookout for decent blog posts but ignore social media and most of youtube. 2) BUT your best bet for actually leveling up is reading these ten books I'll give you (Designing Data-Intensive Applications, etc. etc.), plus doing side projects to get hands-on practice.

> Keep up with the trends by reading hacker news frankly terrible advice, especially now that this website is just AI News. If you want to be a better programmer, there are better places, but I'm not going to advertise them here because I do not want to infect them with the HN commentariat which is much too focused on trends. Engineering fundamentals have not changed in decades. Screw trends, especially at the beginn…

This website has always somewhat been about trends. Before AI it was the metaverse. Crypto before that. NoSQL before that. Rails before that. Arguably there's always the undercurrent of the cult of personality of PG. ...

I'm sure I've missed some things, I've taken more than one hiatus.

Nuance usually cannot be well conveyed in a blog post. Someone is always selling something. When something exists long enough the bullshit behind it is eventually revealed. Reality is messy and there's always bullshit hiding somewhere.

It doesn't mean HN is useless. I use it as a bellweather to see what other people are putting their attention on. I don't pay attention to AI other than what's on here. I mostly follow my interests, which outside my dayjob, is currently concurrency. But I don't write about it.

Ultimately the place to become a better programmer is behind a keyboard learning what works, what doesn't, where it does, where it doesn't, and why or why not. It's difficult to convey all the nuance in every decision which means most people never actually do it. Any post is dripping with assumptions. In my mind nearly any decision could be justified and would be surprised to find a place that actually attempts to teach these.

Rather than consuming media you're probably better off putting it out there and letting people tell you all the ways you're "wrong" (because they love to do that). Somewhat paradoxically I don't really follow my own advice, but that's humans for you.

Re: Forklifts require training

#28
post #25

> I think junior developers shouldn't generate production code with AI. > Other AI tools are fair game ("explain this code", "generate docs", "generate tests", etc.) I disagree. Tests are production code.

In a reword I might have written to clarify "code that ships in production"

Re: Forklifts require training

#29
This is a terrific article the synthesize is several of the trends that have been at play the past five or six years. One interesting phenomenon of AI is that university enrollment and computer science is already falling. A lot. So if the AI promise doesn’t deliver (there are already signs), software engineering talent is going to cost a lot more than it did before.

Re: Forklifts require training

#30
When I think of a forklift, I think of a machine with wheels, that steers from the back. It has a hydraulic lift in the front, and you can attach things to it, like metal bars, for lifting pallets of stuff off the ground. And training is a pretty good idea because they don’t drive like cars, and it’s really damned easy to accidentally kill yourself or someone else with one.

Is this what this analogy is referring to? Because I read it and wondered - has this person ever been in a warehouse, or just seen one on TV? Or am I being dense and there is something else called a ‘forklift’?

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